Todd Hioki

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi friends, welcome to this week's Once Upon the Feeling. I'm your host, Rita. This season we're exploring connection. What is connection? What does it mean to connect with another human being? What does it mean to connect deeply with ourselves, with our inner child? I truly believe all of this is very central to our human experience. I can't wait to dive in into this topic with our guests this week. And I am so excited that you're here. Take good care. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us this week on our Once Upon the Feeling podcast. I'm so excited about today's conversation because it is with one of my favorite human in the world who has helped me and my husband and our family so much. We have known each other for over 10 years now. Because yeah, because my oldest is 12, and she was at the school that you were teaching at at like six months or eight months before she could walk. So hi Todd.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

Hello. Hi. I'm super, super happy to be here chatting with you. Yeah, I think it's been like over 12 years.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

So I know it's amazing. And Todd, right now, is you're the founder and also teaching at Magnolia Community Preschool here in St. Gabriel, California. Yes. And because you're so free and have so much time on your hand, you're also pursuing a PhD in humanistic psychology.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Yeah, a little bit busy, but I always have time for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

How are you, Mr.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

Great? I'm super uh I'm really happy you asked me to chat with you today. Uh because I love talking about and thinking about human development. So thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Well, thank you for coming. I know you're busy. You have a lot of little people um, you know, that you're you're working with. I have like, yeah, I have little not so little people, and uh, you know, you were leading our pod during COVID. And it was so interesting that to this day, where we talk about when we reminisce about those two years, and I'm like, I'm looking at the girls, it's like, especially the little one Anatina, she like she didn't skip a beat. That was probably the best two years of her life. Like, what COVID? COVID was the best time of her life, and it was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Yeah, you know, it we were so fortunate, I couldn't have predicted how fortunate we'd be. And, you know, I felt it was as big a period of growth for my own work as a teacher as it it was for for the kids. So we as as terrible and as difficult as the times were for many people, we did create um this small little safe protected space. And I think we all thrived from it.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, it was

Violin Resistance Trigger

SPEAKER_01 3:03

beautiful. Speaking of which, these two little people this past week, I'm just gonna start ranting now. I'm gonna give you all of my parenting problems and then we're gonna talk about it because it's just so funny how these things kind of just like fall on my lap, like the week before our call. Um, so my girls have been playing violin since they were four and five. Um, the old one, she just turned 12. So it's been a minute. And as they kind of go inching towards these like preteen years, these like resistance starts to come in, right? So we were away for Labor Day, we came back from a beautiful camping trip, they missed three, four days of practice, and they were supposed to deliver, have a piece memorized for that week's class. So I reminded, especially the old one, I reminded them. I'm like, you got to practice, even just touch it because you have to play for your teacher in three days.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I must have reminded them three times within like three-hour time span to a point where the old one, my firstborn, just looked at me, said, Yes, mom, I know. And then she turned around and proceeded to do whatever she was doing. There was no movement. And I was just, I was just about to lose it. And I saw me, you know what? If I have to try so hard with you, let's just take a break. Like, this is not worth it for me. Because in my own upbringing, you know, I had a pretty traumatic relationship with music myself, and I didn't want to bring that into my family. Like, this is not how we're gonna do music. You don't like it? Fine.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

What was so interesting, and that kind of like for me was this almost like this in like this internal combustion moment for me, I was just this realization was when the little one started freaking out and crying, and it's like, oh no, I don't want to quit. She was panicking. And I'm like, it's okay, we're just gonna take a break. And literally about 10 minutes after she came back to me, said like, would you still would you still tuck me in? And that was when the light bulb in my head went on. I'm like, oh my god, like she there is this like sense of danger or like lack of connection. Somehow she is equating. If she doesn't do and like how mommy wants her to do it, then she will lose me.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

And then that kind of brought me back to how I was at her age. You know, I too hated practicing, I too fought with my mom. Then it was a lot less cordial, and let then it was cane treatment. So it was it was painful.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

But the the option of not continuing was presented to me. But I I never, I never, I know I just kept on saying, no, I want to play. I want to play. This is what I want. And it was that moment when the little one asked me to tack her in, did I realize, oh, I never thought that I could quit because that actually was not safe. That was how I earned my keek in the family. And then this is like when I go when my just brain just exploded. And I'm like, oh my god, like what a mirror moment. And then the entire week last week, which is me like losing sleep, thinking about geez Louise, I literally have a kid on my hand who who thinks that she has to do all the things in order to be here. And I'm and I got to think of like, can I? There was one thought that came to me that I think I'm gonna need to practice on is like, will I love my children um as much as I love them now or in uh in whatever condition, if they're like the most useless human being on earth, yeah, if they have the if they accomplish absolutely nothing, can I and will I still love them like the way I do when they are you know beautiful and do well in school? And and because and yeah, I I I think cognitively, logically, every single parent is say, of course we will. But at the same time, I think underneath it, at least for me, like there are so many layers underneath, and I'm like, Will I though?

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Right. I mean you I think you're bringing up um at least three really interesting things that we could talk about. I think one is that thing that not just children's face, but adults about learning and really how much more difficult it is than we give it credit for. I think it was interesting how you used the word trauma, which we can talk about. And and I also think, you know, there's this last thing you said is interesting too. You you who we are and who we think we are are can be very different. And I don't think humans realize how much of who we are depends on the situation we're in. When we what would it really be like to have a child who just refused to do nothing, which is such an extreme case. But you know, at that point, I don't have any answers for that. It would be a challenge for anybody. But I I think you know, you you had questioned me, you brought up a uh uh a query about like how I how I got into this, and I want to talk about that because I think it relates. So the question is something like, you know, how did you get started working with children? How did you find this calling? And it's perfect because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do in my very early 20s. And I was there's a a feeling of desperation, truly, because I really wanted to do something that I cared about. And I always love working with children, and somebody mentioned it and we said something not and I I started working in a preschool and I hated it. I mean, I I I wanted to quit every single day, but I couldn't because I needed the money. There was no other job. So this is really I and I think about this a lot. If I had had the resources, I would have bailed early. But but there's so much nuance to take apart here. So why did I stay? What changed? Because it did. Um I think one of the things was the place I was working at wasn't super supportive and I had to work things out. But when I started um college and I started actually getting like really good theory and talking and had really good mentors, that started to open up these these doors because when I would go in and work, I had more tools to work with. And then all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, the opposite of all of a sudden, I think after about seven or eight months, things became very, very fascinating. And I think like what I'm doing here is I'm not giving anybody an answer. I'm giving people question. What the heck was that? Um, and do you do you watch White Lotus?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I didn't. My husband does, but I haven't. I've watched like maybe like two episodes, and I'm like, this is weird. So I moved on. I love a Ted Lasso girl.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Well, I love Ted Lasso and it's way more nurturing. But there was this, there was this one part, I think it was season three, but there was this very wealthy family, and the girl kind of wrote the whole family going to Thailand, and she didn't tell them, but she wanted to go there because she wanted to study at a monastery. She was saying basically, I'm gonna stay here for a year, and the mom freaked out, and the mom begged her, you know, stay here just one night and then decide. Now, what happens? She she spends one night, the bed sucks, there's bugs, she's totally uncomfortable, and she bursts into tears and she says, You're right, and they leave. And I think, you know, out of the whole show, something really caught me about that because I don't know what what the audience is taking away, but it what didn't reveal who she was, if things would have gone according to plan, she would have stayed, she would have been miserable for a few months, and then something like think, we don't know for sure, could have happened. So I think what I'm trying to distill down in all this is how difficult development, real learning is, and how there's a paradox that you can you could be in something that maybe is your calling, but there's this, I don't know what do you call it. What is that, the learning curve or something? There's a point in deep learning where a lot of people get thrown and it's a tragedy because um if they stayed, they they would have maybe found their thing. But what I want to talk about is that vulnerability, that moment where you need something beyond yourself, whether it's the fact that you don't have a job or you have a good mentor, something because real learning is gonna throw your own individual resources, I think. You know, does that does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yeah, yeah.

Learning Friction and Community

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I think uh well, as you're talking about this, is this notion of friction. Yeah, right. It's the friction. And I talked about this with other guests, and I mean really everybody in my universe, is that if you look at how technology has been kind of like the arc of technology, everything that is tracking, their goal is to remove friction. For to be Uber, Instacart, I mean, heck, emails like nobody has to do, everything is about instant gratification. How can we do something better, faster, quicker, more accurate? It's about optimizing.

unknown 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

But what it removes is is the capacities, it's our capacity to withstand friction.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Yeah. Like nobody, nothing goes anywhere. A car is not gonna go anywhere if there wasn't for friction, right? So it's it's I think that's kind of like the that's kind of like this yes, and this like paradoxual field is that yes, that was uncomfortable, but the discomfort is essential for us to to thrive. I mean, trees, I mean, if you look at nature, it's presented like that everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Yes, yeah. I mean, I think one of the again, I think this is going to be a bunch of questions that that I I come up with, but something I just said is how much I mean our culture is very individualistic, and there's a lot of stories around that, like in terms of like personal responsibility and will. And I think those are essential ingredients, but when you look at real growth, oftentimes you've got things that extend beyond the individual, they could be positive or negative. I mean, there's no easy answer that needs in some way to hold the individual through that zone of discomfort. And I I think there is some relationship between deep learning and overwhelm. Yeah, I mean like like in like like when you when you study like a classic uh way of dividing learning like Piaget is assimilation and accommodation. Assimilation is when you're just filing things into categories you already know, like you know, like you you you have a new fruit, uh it's a dragon fruit, but you know that goes into the fruit file. Um but then there's types of learning that don't not just don't fit into the file, they could break your whole file cabinet. So we're talking right now, whether it's your daughter coming into this crisis uh about what she wants to do or myself. Am I uh the question I had was I thought, you know, I'm I'm somebody who likes children. And then I was in a situation where I don't like being with these children at all. And I think there's almost this crucible where you have to melt everything down and reform yourself and you become, in the best cases, somebody better. But we we can't romanticize this. A lot of people get defeated, a lot of people come away feeling like a failure. And I don't have wrong answers to that. All I know is, you know, can we all agree we've all had similar experiences one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

Does resilience have anything to do with that? How, how, how much pain, for lack of a better word, how much pain you can tolerate? Like, and I think that's kind of the thing. Like, how how how long do you wait? Like, how far do you go until you say, you know what, that really sucks.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

I don't think it's it's that easy. What's so funny is so in human development, you're you you start to really realize how strange and complex humans are. And I think there's a there's levels. You've got a TikTok and Instagram discussion about resilience. There are some people who've got a huge amount of will that destroy themselves. The thing that I think we all seek from podcasts or Instagram is magic bullets. We we do we want the three things, these three things that you could do. And and there's a good reason for that because life is overwhelming. We're already saturated, and what we desperately crave is to simplify to that one thing that we could focus on. I actually do think there there probably is one or two things a person focuses on, but it's not universal. It it's each person has gotta audit themselves because, first of all, a person is in the worst seat to know where their blind spots are. It just that's the design of human beings. You're not gonna know what you lack.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

That's why they're called blind spot, because you're blind.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

Right, right, right. And I think there there's a curse and a blessing for our culture, okay? So, and you tell me if you you agree with this or not. So, like we live in a very contemporary modern situation where we're we don't have these strong times ties to our family, like you know, where your parents would tell you what you're gonna do, or your community would tell you what you're gonna do. You could even say goodbye to your parents for for years if you disagree with them. And look at like LA too, you you're not really bound by your neighborhood. I I grew up in a condom medium where the houses were connected, and I didn't know our neighbors for like 30 years, and we shared the same structure. So, on one hand, great freedom, you could sort of holistically instruct who are. That's I think the the the the the dream. I don't think it's true. Um, but but here's the other side of it. A lot of people who were born into a much tighter community or tighter families, they wouldn't define or change who they were. They were super determined. Part of I think the really difficult challenges is that we need a supportive community. But if you have a community, usually the community is going to tell you what they need out of you. I think what every what every parent, child, and human needs is something that doesn't quite exist yet, right? It is a group of people that share some values and practices that support each other, but but you know who you are. You're very individual. Do you get along with you know your neighbors and even your friends? I mean, my friends are so diverse, I don't know that even they would be. So again, I'm I'm posing more of a question. How do we get beyond I we yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

I love this because like one of my things, and I just realized this, it was like this awakening moment. One of the things that I realize I really love is to build these communities. Like I'm always like the party throwers, hey, who wants to get together? Um and I think this is something, and this is something that I'm also trying to do within my own on my own street, right? Um, not only that um it's just not it's not just the moms or the dads, is it's the grandparents and the teenagers and the three-year-old all coming together. Um it's and I don't know whether it's because of this AI technology talk and doomsday thing that is everywhere right now is the reason, but I also feel the the entire neighborhood like craving connection with each other, like real life person-to-person connection. So, you know, Anatina will go across the street and teach the little girl how to play on the ukulele, and then they're come over for dinner and and things like that. And now like I feel like this is like this is what I want to explore is this sense of connection. And what you have mentioned before is something that I have observed, and I have a theory is about this. Like, how do we go from three, four generation generational living where you lived with your grandparents and great-grandparents and uncles and everybody else, to this absolute nuclear family that we're currently in, right? Like you said, like you didn't know your neighbors. Some of my neighbor, we threw a um a uh neighborhood street, what what did they call it? A block party last year. It's not a very long street. There's about, I think there were 13 houses on the street. There's two people who have been living, like two families have been living on the opposite end of the street. It's been a walk. Um, since the 80s, I don't know each other. Right, right. Right. And so, and that was the time when everybody got together and figured like know each other's names and things. It was such a beautiful event. But what I've I'm also realizing that for that event, are they talking to each other? No, they're not. Right? So because there's no habit, there's so much inertia, like trying to get people to kind of come out of their shell. That in itself is the feat. And you know, one person can only do that many WhatsApp trying to cult, like, you know, trying to get everybody's calendar to sink. But my thing is, is that how do we go from those generational living to nuclear? A lot of us didn't like the generational living situation where we're put in a box, we're expected to do a certain thing, we're expected to tolerate everybody's craziness and you know, and and being told what to do. We're like, you know what, forget that. I don't need your help. I'm gonna do my own thing because I have the freedom and I don't need to be judged. I'm gonna pay people to do it, and they are not going to judge me.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

That's uh that's a big part of therapy, too. You know, you uh not only, you know, you if it's somebody who's actually skilled at at listening too, which is funny. But I mean, um, I think you bring up something at the heart that a lot of people feel, and uh but you know, again, it's a lot, it's you have to widen the context. It a lot of it has to do with the landscape right now. You've got so many other choices. I mean, your phone and and Netflix, I feel like when you grew up in the 70s and the the 80s, the neighborhood was an obvious choice because it it was the only choice. You know, you only had like 10 channels and you know, people watched a couple of shows. Um, there was no internet. But but again, I'm not I think when I listen to people talk about this problem, there's one category which is to me useless, which we can all dream, we can all kind of feel like what's missing, but there's no answer. There's I have absolutely no answer to anybody of how to get back to that place because it's gone and the the world we're in right now is different. I long for it. I think if anything, we could say. state what what I'm missing. But the thing is, I myself at seven o'clock at night wouldn't want to go to a block party, even though I need it to sh like in terms of my own nurturing should go. I would rather read a book. But I think, you know, you brought up twice, I think in in in your opening you were talking about trauma and now we're talking about therapy. And I do want to circle back to to to that. But I I don't want to leave this to the talk about community like just Oh no, we will come I we'll come back.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

No. We're coming back here. Because I got something to say about what you just said. But anyways keep going.

Trauma Boundaries and Perseverance

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I would love to hear your thought about trauma.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah, okay. I'll we'll come back because I have to I'm organizing my thoughts about community as well because I have other things I want to say. But um so you you we were we had been mentioning the idea of how drama comes up now with with parenting. And when your opening thing you were saying how traumatic it was your relationship to learning to play the piano in your family. And I think you know again I'm going to talk about kind of the TikTok and Instagram layer and then other other things. I think one of the benefits so you've got trauma theory and there's that's not one thing. There are many therapists who who talk about there's many parts to it. And that raw research has trickled down as as many research does into popular culture. And during that journey some things are helpful and other things aren't so helpful right so yeah well let's let's first talk about what trauma means clinically as opposed to what trauma means colloquially like in everyday language. So in everyday language trauma usually mean everything from actual trauma but most of the time it means something that wasn't pleasant. And it's really good to to distinguish because I think a lot of parents get worried like if there's actual trauma when a lot of the times it's not so what what is trauma? There's a certain school of thought that when you look at trauma first of all it's not necessarily a bad event on itself. So what do we mean by bad events like your husband of 50 years dies, you get mugged, maybe your arm gets amputated that's those are considered kind of shock traumas. They're like these deep events there's also things called developmental trauma and those those are like death by a thousand cuts that could be a parent that just constantly says how bad you are every day or just microaggressions every day. And those again can have uh bad effects but um I think one other thing that um people miss about trauma so one one one thinker Stolero who I I read is trauma is first of all not just the bad event it is often the consequence of the bad event shattering the meaning of the world to you. So what do we mean? So let's just say you're you're you're walking along and you get mugged violently this alley right by your house. What happens is it changes the way the world shows up to you in everyday life. So what happens is when you're walking by that alleyway again, it's no longer the alleyway you walk by it's the place that that attacks you right a a knock on the door is not it doesn't show up as oh this is could be a friendly person. What a nice thing it shows up as threat. Right. The third really important part about trauma is often even if you have something really bad happen to you and even if it kind of screws up your world the third component is did you have support? Because what happens is you can have something bad happen to you. Your world can get shattered but if you have a certain type of holding sometimes that can keep the world from being shattered. Right. So we just keep those three things in mind. Yes. So why is this important a lot of times like let's say a child is refusing to clean up their blocks or whatever and they start to scream and cry and the parent wants to set a limit but the child's screaming and they're thinking oh my God this is traumatic it's not it doesn't meet any of those definitions of of traumatic really it's basically but but but here's the flip side to it too and you can tell me if I'm getting too complicated. When a child tantrums there are things that look really similar to trauma but in fact they're really like helpful because the child you know when you're a baby they're crying and you're holding them and they don't have language. So they expect that if they cry they get their needs met and you know they grow up a little bit more. And when a child wants something and you say no they still think they're a baby they start to cry and their world does come apart in a sense they're saying I'm crying you're supposed to help me. Now this is almost the inverse of trauma because their whole world is coming apart but when we don't follow through but we remain present and loving then they have that deep deep learning which goes back to what we were talking about. So we can kind of connect things my my wanting to my discovering that I couldn't leave teaching is kind of like that moment. And because I got lucky or whatever the circumstances forced me to grow. It didn't become traumatic I did to this you know now I love kids. So I'm I'm kind of handing things back to you. I'm giving you these pieces and the question is and how do these pieces relate sometimes something that seems bad truly is traumatic and sometimes when our world comes apart yeah something good happens.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Absolutely and I'm tracking all of that and I think what you're speaking to right now um I see it too especially with some maybe some of the moms who are who have smaller children like how do you distinguish between a tantrum and something that's trauma. So now I understand what you're saying because that's actually not traumatic that's just boundaries and you just got to set your boundaries they've got to learn their boundary they're upset about learning the boundary but like you said like you're present like it's I still love you. It just can't no you cannot have candy at 9 p.m before you go to bed and that is from a place of it's it's interesting because I'm saying life from a place of love. You know that moment your kid is melting down or gone quiet and you have no idea what to say this is Rita host of Once Upon the Feeling and co-founder of Gucci. My co-founder and I make Gucci because we've stood in that moment ourselves. Gucci is an app built around storytelling because kids don't process big feelings through lectures. They process them through stories of others experiencing similar things whether it be loss, fear or just straight up pain. The stuff that is really really hard. Gucci gives you the words for them and honestly sometimes for you too we built it as parents living this in real time and how to vetted by child development experts so it's not just sweet it is sound. You can download the Gucci app on the Apple App Store and now when those moments come you will have the right words right at your fingertips. As you were talking about the three different types of trauma the one that I experience is a developmental one. It's it was that you know it was just that it was that world right I mean this is this is 30 some years ago um my my my my my classmates often show up with bruises on their body you know there was there's no child protective services you know this is in Asia you know we usually people know who's who got beaten by their parents the day before and and and that is like you know breakfast lunch and dinner. So um so there was a lot of physical pain right and then there's this competition it's not I mean it is not a nurturing way I mean if you think about like how um you know there's always these stories about how the Russians or the Chinese were training their gymnasts or you know it's that kind it's it's pressure. It's like I'm going to you're gonna learn this and if you make a mistake um you will get punished or there's gonna be pain inflicted right and so that was the world I grew up in. You know my husband he is that the he grew up in the completely opposite spectrum right yeah and so for me and our parenting is like oh I want to do everything that his parents did I don't want to do anything that my parents did. So yeah proudly to report that so far so good. And but that but this is also when those kind of instant instance instances becomes I'm hyper aware right it's like no I don't want to force you into doing this. Yeah I haven't forced you I will remind you but at the same line how am I going to because I have never experienced that myself right where I am just driven driven by my my by my own or like my my own curiosity it's always somebody is a you know nicane in the back chasing me. And so it is really hard for me to kind of like know a lever to pull with my own children because I it's hard for me to see because I don't feel it in my body. I don't know what that is. So like from this like this whole ordeal that was interesting I'm I'm gonna tell you what happened as the last week progressed. Um like they I was like let's just take a break the teacher came back she's like I'm so heartbroken can we have a face to face I told the girls what the teacher said and then you can see kind of like their face kind of melt a little bit and then I'm just like look if you really don't want to play it doesn't matter whose heart is broken. You also don't have to play because you don't want her heart to be broken. Everybody is gonna be fine. Yeah and then and then I'm just like is it though yesterday I had a two hour conversation with a teacher face to face we went to the coffee shop we chatted and I actually came to this realization the day before I'm like you know what girls you're gonna continue a violin until you graduate high school and not because I want you to become you know a violinist playing for the Phil or anything. No I'm like just use this as a way to learn how to persevere and how to change your perspective. Both of you love music. Both of you are talented you love to sing you will harmonize every chance you get right but yeah I get that violin sometimes it is that fun but it's giving you all the other things you want to make it fun talk to your teacher how to make it fun. You do not need to play Mozart for me. You can go play fiddle music for all I care like explore but let's change the perspective

Violin Motivation Reset

SPEAKER_01 32:56

don't tell me I don't want to play the instrument you're you're you know develop that relationship how to make it fun but this is just gonna be it until you graduate good luck right and I had a I had a conversation with a teacher like you know be great if you can make it fun for them and she's on the same she's on the same page there's this lever that we could we could pull how do we hold them accountable to some of the things how do we have this teacher student relationship and I'm pulling myself out of there like I'm just like let that be between the two of you and I am just here to to help I'm just assisting but like I'm I'm just stepping up I'm gonna do my own thing. And it's fun I mean we'll see how it goes. This is the first week back but then like they're just like okay I'm like great but that's kind of like that's how that's kind of how we landed um and I feel good about it. And it was interesting because we were talking about like you know once you graduate high school if you don't want to ever ever touch violin again great that's fine. But in it you you know for this time as you're growing you would have the community I I love the mentor that she is there for you in every way the friends that are there like the group of people and and if that's what we're in for that is totally cool too. So that's kind of where I landed with this whole

Trauma and Parenting Filters

SPEAKER_01 34:22

music thing. But it was the it was definitely a very telling point to realize that oh like music somehow for me personally and I don't think my I don't think my parents can verbalize that either in the sense like I don't think they know that and that's the thing right it's like I think a lot of the times when we're talking about developmental trauma and what happened 35 years ago is that they too at the time were also doing the best they can and this is why a lot of the times like when I'm saying like the intention is out of love. Intention wasn't to hurt I don't think that was the hurt uh that doesn't taste what was done it doesn't deny the fact that you know it was deeply painful and there was a lot of healing a lot of like making sense of what happened that that needed to happen but at the same time like now recognizing that oh at this you know they did the best they could and not you know that they did the best they can now they can't. It was like aha coming home come to Jesus moment for me. Been like that for the past few years.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

But I think it's a it's a beautiful solution you found and I think you bring up a bunch of things. I mean I mean two more points I think that relate to trauma is you know a lot of us are dealing with the consequences of our parents' parenting and I think one thing I've I've learned and observed is that you know one way of possibly judging or making sense of the shortcomings of our parents is to understand how much of what they did filtered what their grandparents did to them. Now in my case you know for all my parents' shortcomings I know that my father especially filtered a lot of the stuff that his family did to him. And when I look through that lens he's a hero because you know and and and we and I think that's one thing that parents should should b judge themselves by because you know it's as everybody knows it's not about perfection but to be more specific you we're all filtering a lot of that intergenerational stuff handed to us. Our job isn't to eliminate it that's impossible that human nature doesn't allow such things but it's to remove some of that toxicity as it passes through each filter right but the thing is what's also really important is there again it is an illusion it is a lie to think how individual we are we are so shaped by the cultural forces right now all the stuff we're being handed is ridiculous. Just the fact that our children are being handed these digital devices which I'm not saying are bad in and of themselves how do you judge from that? And then the the other thing though I wanted to bring up that I think relates again we're we're tying a little bit into trauma and it it so relates is you know what's the what's the difference between today's parents and parents 20 years ago? And part of that is is how trauma therapy is informing. But you've got a certain group of parents that are amazing because they read a lot they want to know they want to be better. So they read stuff they read things about regulation co-regulation maybe

Co Regulation Gone Too Far

SPEAKER_03 37:36

polyvagal theory Damasio McGillchrist all these people and what can happen if you're in isolation reading books is you're interpreting these ideas and you're applying them you're not part of a community of practice and you're not bringing them into the context of child development sometimes or even early childhood education and I'll be specific so a lot of parents get really into co-regulation and what they don't understand is how much but I gotta be careful with my words how counterproductive too much co-regulation can be. And this tell us more. Yeah but it really relates well it really relates to what we're talking about. So if a child falls over and they're upset or their ice cream falls on the ground there's a lot of important stuff where their system is overwhelmed and they use the parent to regulate their emotions. Yeah and for infants that's a lot that's a whole lot because they have very little ability but then you start to get into like oddlers and this is where I think a lot of parents trip especially if they go to like rye training like resources for infant educators a Magda Gerber and what they do is they treat the toddler like an infant and that is that can lead to a child having extremely thin skin. And here's what's so difficult and it totally goes back to what we're talking about about how difficult learning is so you've been reading books you've been going to your Rye class you learn how to look and listen to your infant and then something bad happens to your toddler like they fall over and all those tools are right there. Your world is this child needs my regulation. So at that point they don't need all that much they need less is what I'm saying. But when you begin to coach a lot of those parents that is a shattering of their world it it's so difficult for them to give up that paradigm and this clean to that infantilization can last until the child's 50 or 60 you know like it it it it it all depends. And I have nothing but empathy like I can say this because I don't have children. I have other people's children so there's a built-in distance because we can give them back. Yeah but here so a lot of my work has to do with how we make meaning and how the world shows up. So one of the things that we work with parents about is changing how the world shows up. So and usually you can't talk about it directly you have to use metaphor so we see this child as this infant as having no regulatory system. So they borrow like and this is where neurobiology creeps in in good and bad ways but we lend them our our right prefrontal cortex everybody's heard this we've seen it on Instagram and and and it that is true. There's overdoing it um so then what we we need to start changing the metaphor so that when this toddler doesn't get the chocolate cake or falls over we don't see them as the infant what we do is I guess if we if we were going to stick with that um neurobiological metaphor which is just one of many like you don't need neurobiology is to think of say the self-regulatory I don't know persona identity or even if you need to imagine that little motor in the head you could say well let's let them use a little bit more of their own motor right now. But I think what you're coming up to is beyond me. It's very complex because you know my expertise is for five and under. So you're talking about a 12 year old and now you've got somebody who's got a lot of these advanced capabilities. They've got amazing creative reasoning. They're beginning to feel what what life what's important to them in life but they're also struggling with who they are. So you have this question now and and you said you were you're I really liked how you're handling it because I think you and I would have handled the violin question very similarly I know my value would be to keep them playing the violin but but that's that doesn't answer how, right? I think the worst case scenario is when things break down and they become like behavioristic or mechanical like what lever can I do to force you to stay in here but but you don't eliminate that's that's part of the conversation right like what leverage do I have but if that's the only thing you're doing then they're gonna feel like they're not real. They're gonna feel like an object. So what's beautiful for you is you know you open up the discussion you expose what's real for you like this is what I went through this is when I can sense what's going through for you this is what my value is and you know you're really trying to sidestep the trap of making them some goat to perform like a monkey that's supposed to perform. But you know I all I have is admiration for what you're doing. Like I I would struggle as much with with the question because then you're you're not just dealing with an adult you're dealing with something much more harder than adult which is like someone becoming an adult.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Right? And I think it's what you're saying um it resonates so much and I actually think like as the kids get older the pace actually slows I mean I don't know if it slows down it feels like it slow it slows down a little bit right that each the developmental leap takes a little longer. But if you're thinking about that first five years oh yeah oh my God right like every month the kid every month is a different kid. And so if you think about the new parents out there or any parent that has a newborn or like you know any kid like under the age of five especially that first kid it is so hard because it's a completely different pace. Like every single month like you have to you have to shatter yourself essentially yeah right because like a 12 month and 18 months those regulatory systems is completely different. And so I remember one of the things when the when when kids were little one of the things that we always hear is like well they have to fall to learn how to walk you can't just be their crutches all the time. So they will learn how to balance and how to do this and how to do that. And I I am I'm actually going to the event tomorrow Um that is centered around a lot of these apps and things, and and they were gonna talk about the Anxious Generation. You probably have heard of it, the job by Jonathan Hay. So it's that anxious generation, and I was actually just kind of like watching some of its content before this. Is it's the same thing when the kids were at I remember this um well, we did the tour when the girls when my Malina was like infantaller and you were We were at the tour and something that you said it was it and really, really struck, and I still remember it to this day. It's like 12 years ago. You besides it said something about this yard it designed so they can learn, like so they will fall, so they will learn not how to like they will learn how not to fall or how to fall. There are risks involved. Yeah, there are risks involved in this yard. It is not meant to be safe, right? We're remove all the possibilities. Right. And I think that's major injury, yes, yeah. But that's the thing, is that, you know, and then again, this is probably up to every parent, you know, as to where their tolerance is and and what they're able to stomach, but it's this notion of you know, and with a 12-year-old, I feel like at that point with a 12-year-old or a five-year-old, it's the same. Like they have to push those boundaries. They have to almost sometimes surpass those boundaries to know where the boundaries are.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

You you don't, and that is deeply, deeply uncomfortable for many of the parents, and especially for for, you know, somebody who is dropping off their kids the very first time at a preschool. I can make I can only imagine, like, you know, you've got this little thing walking outside of you, and you're just like, yeah, I mean, that is the huge, like, I think as a parent, like that is the like, you know, this is where you're also your brain goes like upside down and inside out.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

Yeah, yeah. And I I think you brought up oh a whole a bunch of of interesting things. I think, I mean, I think the first thing that I I should mention before, like, so I mentioned that we can overregulate. And I think I'm not the first there's a whole trend of people trying to correct the misunderstandings of of gentle parenting. Not that that gentle parenting isn't wrong per se. What's so easy to do is, you know, people want to go go eat too far in either direction. And this again is that impulsive need to simplify, like, oh, we gotta start going back. We had it right when we told them just to suck it up. And here's the the the uncomfortable truth, like what uh what is my research in uh in human development show me is how complex things are. And there's nothing wrong with the in some of the Instagram stuff's okay, some of it's horrible. A lot of the parenting books are are good, but what you what you gotta understand is what is a how is a parenting book different than say a really good ECE textbook or even research itself. It's sort of like a frozen dinner, it's a convenience um thing. But when you with the difference between lean cuisine and like a really well-cooked dinner, you you have to leave leave things out to get that convenience. And you have to ask yourself, what's being left out? And here I want to I want to remain positive, but but you know, here's the challenge is things have not gotten easier for me over the years. Like, I think there's much better parent coaches than me now because it's a different skill set. I'm no longer studying parent coaching, I'm studying human development. And what I see is humans, whether adult development, child development, it's all extremely complex. I think as parent parenting consumers of parenting stuff, it's necessary to develop uh a higher layer than than the tools. So and don't get me wrong, a really good tool could save a person's life. You know, like I read this thing and it could really be a game changer. Um But I think, you know, our what our conversation really shows here is where a lot of these books stop, that floor. When you break through it, you actually get to what being a human is, which is really complex. Um and um so right now we do we do have a bit of a problem because and I have to be careful because I'm talking about a very specific demographic. I tend to work with middle classic, upper middle class Western families, you know, in Los Angeles. And, you know, you can go a couple neighborhoods over and you've got a very different set of problems. So let's just be clear. But within this demographic, I think the one thing that we have to start being careful of that's almost universal, is over-regulating children. But then here's where the hard stuff comes in. And maybe this is not where I have an answer, but where my research is trying to solve some of the problem is what does that mean to not over-regulate and to underregulate, you know? And how does that change for the one-year-old, the two-year-old, the 12-year-old, and even, you know, the 50-year-old for myself, you know, what I discover as a 50-year-old person is that I'm still answering the same questions for myself. How do I rate regulate myself? What is the right way to regulate myself? What's just tuning out? And um what my concern right now is I've I've come to really understand is the answers cannot rely lay at the feet of an individual. There's no book you can read that will change you into the individual you want to be. There's no act of will as an individual. In some way, shape, or form, you have to build uh until you really have that utopic community that's that's large. You do need to pull together some people and some books in in some sort of larger group. As a preschool teacher and as an academic, that is, I think, one of the blessings I have in my life because I can just keep hiring the best teachers. So, like the teachers I hire right now have got are better than me. That's how I hire you. If you're better than me, you're you're hired. And what that does is it keeps pushing me into an uncomfortable but productive position. Hearing back, you know, what I'm I'm proud, the the single most thing that I'm proud of right now is just how uncomfortable a position I've put myself in. Because my teachers at a higher show me what I where my shortcomings are constantly. And I get it from both ends because as a PhD student, my professors constantly showing the holes of my thinking. And I'm really coming to an edge. There are some days where I I say, gosh, like, really, I need like um, I I and I take a step back. But but what am I saying here? I'm saying that that that's I think maybe the constant in life. I think learning and development are are deeply tied together. I don't think it ends, and I think what the good life is dose the right dosage. And that that word isn't arbitrary, you know, you could trace it back to I think Derrida, it's it's like in philosophy, because they understood how much like Pharmacon, how much press we need to put on ourselves to grow, but stay within a boundary where we don't like collapse. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Yeah. There is, there is, there is a lot there. And I think this this whole complexity, and this is oh I I absolutely agree with you on this parenting, where there's coaching or books and all the things, because if you look at like at the bigger, like kind of like pull yourself, I pull myself up, you know, up to the 30,000 feet, and I'm looking at what kind of books are out there and what kind of questions the parents are asking. It's a very, it's it's it feels like we're trying to make it very linear, right? Yeah. And that's oh yeah. And that's and that's but then at the same time, like, you know, the economics of all of it. I mean, these these types of contents and these type of speakers or the way that the way these stuff is these the the solutions are packaged is getting is getting traction. So obviously that everybody's gonna, that's just economics one-on-one, right? Like everybody's gonna be doing that because it's easy to digest. But it's like, oh, if this happens, then you do this and then and then and then problem solved, right? And I'm like, yeah, and this is the thing, is it's uh one of the realizations even watching the girls, you know, fourth grade, sixth grade, girls, preteen girls are complicated, and they get mean and and all of the things one of the learning from that whole episode, I'm not I'm learning, I'm I'm learning about life. I'm learning like really about how human and human interact through watching the kids at school and like how it happens and you know, and then drawing some parallels to how how it was like that for me. And what I realized too a lot of the times that people don't realize that sometimes it is also natural for things to just kind of go unresolved because they're not meant to be resolved. And somehow in 30 years' time, it just I don't know, it's it like you said, it's like this this is this complex web. Just because that happened and you did this, a lot of the times it is not an equal sign in the back. It doesn't equal to that. Um it will be silly to think that that that will cure it all.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yeah, our move our our lives, you know, we like to watch good movies, hopeful movies, because they give us something that life doesn't. Yeah, they give us something that life doesn't, which which are I mean, but you know, Death Last So is actually better because it's in a it's a TV series, and one thing that's different between a movie and a TV series is it's more lifelike because the tension just keeps going on and on. It it never really resolves.

Embodied Learning and Community

SPEAKER_03 53:54

And I think maybe one of the last things we could we can end on is what what one thing about learning that that I think needs that could be more explicit is the difference in the levels between um the cognitive, the framework, and then what happens in the body. And this is something that that my work really does center on, and I think I'm I'm more and more interested in. So the stuff in the books is essential in a sense, but um what it does is it's almost like a temporary thing where it gives you a little bit of meaning. But but to exaggerate it, it's sort of like if you want to play basketball, it's like opening the book and saying, okay, put the ball in the basket. That's not gonna get you in the MBI. So the one big reframe is almost all my learning right now needs to be translated into the physical body, even if it's math. So a lot of my work is it's borderline philosophical, psychological, and early child education. When I talk about, I can read all day about co-regulation and how, you know, the cortical and the subcortical, but um what I'm blessed is in my preschool is that I I get to spend a few hours every morning translating that. How does that affect base, my body? How does the child show up to me? Does the child show up to me as a pain in the butt? Or is the child showing up to me as somebody who's needing something? And and that's what I mean by physical. Literally, literally, how how do things appear to me? Um, because when you take a third person point of view, like we could say this little boy walks up to Todd, this little boy hits child in the head. That's the objective third person thing. But when you're in your body watching it, you could see the little boy's face. Are they uh they hungry? Did did was it a residual because mom mom dropped off a little too quickly? Are they just curious what it's like to hit me in the face? And then what's even more interesting is how asking yourself how I show up to them. Yeah, you know, like some punitive behaviorist who's just gonna like get angry at them? Am I supportive? Am I curious? Am I gonna be this over-caring, over-regular, like, oh, a baby, you're you know, am I gonna try to turn them into an infant when they're not? And so that's at the core, I think, of of both early child learning, but then this again comes up to your 12-year-old. How are they showing up? Are they just the rebellious teen? Like that is is the stereotype. And then you you want to go not just deeper, but also personal, because you could read a really good book on teenagers, but that's not your teenager. And then ultimately, and then we can end on this, is but 50, you know, 50 is a real interesting age because it's like, what do they say? They they say 40s, when is it? The the 50s is the the 40s is the old age of youth, and 50s is the youth of old age. And you know, at that point, uh, I'm answering the questions like I I see that I've only got 30 years or so left of really productive time. What am I gonna do with it? How's the world showing up to me? Am I gonna say AI is gonna doom us all or the politics are gonna doom us all? That's too easy. And really, I don't want to waste my time saying that it's all bad. Because the thing is a lot of those easy answers make it sound as though I'm not still an active participant. Yes. Yeah. And that's what we're saying with the children. Really good childhood education is really about, you know, they it's it's a balance. They are agents, they have agency, but they're also community. They are both. I think that's a good follow-through for everything.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

Yeah, I think I think that's the yeah. I mean, you touched up. I mean, I I see this so much. It's like sometimes this parenting journey is not about parenting a child. This parenting journey is is as much about the children as it is how we show up with them, for them, all of it. And having that awareness, I think this is that is really what the families will be able to find what works for them. And I'm getting better at it now after 12 years, is that when something comes and triggers, and I'm like, oh, like how does that make me feel? And how am I showing up? And and and it's like all of a sudden the dot starts to link.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

And that is what I can also say, okay, I can make that choice. Now I know what is behind all of this. Like, how do I proceed? How do I go forward? At that point, like, you don't need a parenting book. Like, you just gotta be the best parent that you can be.

SPEAKER_03 58:30

Yeah, yeah. And if you're lucky, you've got some some really good people that support you through it because um, you know, when you're trying to, like we said, if you're trying to hold yourself, it's really tough. So it's really good to have at least a couple of trusted people and help hold you while you're trying to turn, come out of yourself and look back at yourself. I think one of the most tricky maneuvers is you start to realize there's no who I am. You're in a relationship with yourself, and you are constantly getting to know who you are and who you are in different circumstances, and it's that internal conversation that I think slowly does lift us up, but it you know, it does need some other people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:14

Community, that's where it's at. We'll just get it.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

Community is where, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Hey, if you can't find one, just build one. That's what I do, right?

SPEAKER_03 59:22

Yeah, I I think that that's what I've that's what I've been doing for for decades now.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

So yeah, that sounds so good. Okay, thank you. That was such a nourishing conversation. I can do this all day. I can just like go and park myself there. I think what I want to do actually, and this is I was like, oh well, I will do the the intro and outro later. But uh this is just um I will there's like I was talking about the block party, there was a lot of family with children and everything, or whatever. It will be lovely for you to just come and circle with everybody.

SPEAKER_03 59:55

Yeah, well, hey, send me the invite. You know me, I'm a terrible, terrible angel. Like I said, I'm I'm fighting it. I'm fighting it. So send it out to me, Mola.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

Yes, thank you so much for that conversation. It was so, so, so lovely. I loved it. It was just like I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:14

Thanks, Rita. We'll be in touch.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Thank you again for listening to this week's Once Upon a Feeling. I hope you walked away with something new, something different, something that you didn't know you had. I truly enjoyed every moment of making this episode. And I cannot wait to share what we have in store with the next guest, exploring the same topic, connection, because it means so many different things. I appreciate you. If you love this episode, love this podcast, and the thoughts and the information that sparks in you, please give us a five-star review to share with your friends and family. Take good care. I love you, and I will see you next time.