SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi friends, welcome to this week's Once Upon the Feeling. I'm your host, Rita. This season we're exploring connection. What is connection? What does it mean to connect with another human being? What does it mean to connect deeply with ourselves, with our inner child? I truly believe all of this is very central to our human experience. I can't wait to dive in into this topic with our guests this week, and I am so excited that you're here. Take good care. Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this week on our Once Upon the Feeling episode. Today I'm so excited to talk to Miss Jillian Harris. Jillian is a clinical social worker. She works at the Sheffa School in New York City, and she also owns a private practice. Hi, Jillian. Hi, Rita. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah. So can you tell us a little bit about you, how you got to become a clinical social worker, and a little bit what you do day to day? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

So I have been in the field for around 15 years. I have always worked with children and families. I started my career in a residential center working with severely emotionally disturbed children who are also on the autism spectrum. And since that time, I have pivoted a little bit. And right now I work mainly with children who are neurodivergent and who also have ADHD, anxiety, who deal with everyday life stressors. On the day-to-day, I work mainly with adolescents and I'm just helping them get through. But I work with a lot of parents, families, outside providers. So I work with children's therapists, psychiatrists. And then in my private practice, I am the therapist for the kids and I work with their schools as well. And we we just try to touch and support every part of our kids' lives and try to make them as successful as they can be with, you know, what their goals are and what they want to experience success in. And it's it's a fun job. Every day is a little different. So I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

So you mentioned your work has been focused heavily on either autistic children or alistic individuals or neurodiversion. And we talked about right before we hit the recording button, is that this season I really want to lean into the notion of connection. Um, especially with everything that is going on in the bigger world. I feel like there are so many of us, and I feel like parents especially, we're kind of like trying to figure out how to stay connected and be connected, not only within ourselves, but with our bigger community. My gut tells me that gets a little more challenging when you are dealing with individuals who may not speak the same language or who has a completely different type of nervous system. Can you talk a little bit about that? How does that look like in your day? How does that look like in your school? I feel like a lot of those learning can actually be translated into just how we connect with our children on a daily basis. So for all appearans out there right now trying to figure out how to get their teens to talk. Yeah. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

It's really hard to get a teenager to talk. It's one of the hardest things out there, I'd say. I I think it's harder the baseline. It's hard for kids to be vulnerable. I think kids are better at being vulnerable when they're younger and there's less things to be scared of. They're less self-conscious. And then as they grow and they're more aware of the world around them, and this has, of course, only been amplified with social media, it's it's so much harder for them to be vulnerable and open up. And there's so much going on in their brain during puberty, um, during the adolescent period. So that's really hard. And it comes up all the time in my school. What one of the main reasons I'm here is to help resolve conflict. Our kids all have language-based learning disabilities, which means that they a lot of them might have dyslexia, dysgraphia. A lot of our kids, they also have ADHD, anxiety. And a lot of them also have issues processing and taking in the information and then the output and getting it out. And so things literally get lost in translation, even though we're all speaking the same language all the time, picking up on social cues, understanding what their friends are saying. So there's constant conflicts that might occur. And it might just be a miscommunication. And so my job is really to help the kids break that down and understand where, you know, so-and-so, what they said, where it's coming from, and vice versa. And sometimes it might be they missed a word or the way that they didn't recognize the tone. So the way that the tone was being communicated, um, it didn't land with them. And sometimes they just disagree because they're also just really normal kids. And normal kids go through a lot of conflicts. So communication is definitely more challenging, but it happens all the time. I feel like you're just describing our world right now.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, it's true. It's so true. So, what do you do? What do you do to kind of help them hear each other's tones and unmiss the other person's word?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Well, first we have we have to make sure they're calm because I'm sure as you know, you have kids. If your child is not regulated, you can't have a conversation with them, at least not one that's productive. So we try to make sure they're calm. And let me tell you, trying to have a teenager take a mindful moment or take some deep breaths is really hard. Sometimes you just have to walk away and be like, you know what, it's lunchtime, go get some lunch so we can talk about this in an hour. And that's and that's what needs to happen. Cause the more you try to be like, let's, you know, do some deep breathing, or here's a squishy ball, they're gonna throw it out the window. They're gonna be like, I don't want your squishy ball. So sometimes you got to take a break. And then once they're there, it's really about I always meet with kids separately first. So I want to understand what's your perspective from of what happened and what's your perspective. And I know it's always their truth, you know, it's two sides of the story, and somewhere in the middle is the truth. And where I work with my school, I'll see if there were any bystanders, anyone around who can kind of, if it was a bigger conflict, who could, you know, add any light. And then I bring them together. And I think a lot of it is empathy and trying to understand where each person was coming from and trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes. It's really hard for people to do, especially teenagers, and seeing if we can move on. And sometimes we it's hard. And I always say, like, you guys don't have to be friends. Usually they are friends when there's a conflict, but not always. But you don't have to be friends. We have to figure out a way where we can be civil with each other and just, you know, maybe smile at each other in the hallway and just not fight or not have this conflict on a day-to-day. Because it gets in the way of learning, it gets in the way of their sense of self. It makes everything harder and it always makes its way online. And that's and that gets really dangerous. So always seeing if we can squash it during the day before they get behind their phones.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Oh wow, that's yeah. It's interesting because I know when we were talking about setting up this podcast, we talked about this notion of friction, right? And so how friction is really essential in building connections and in our own growth. Um and as the technology advances in the past hundred years, if you kind of look at what we have, we as human, as a race have created, most of those things are about removing friction. Right. Yeah. And so it feels like now there is this candle burning on both ends. You have we have less capacity to withstand friction because a lot of those, by large part, has been removed. So our capacity didn't really grow. And then you add on social media, we're constantly bombarded by everything that is happening around the world. Doesn't matter if it's down the street or 3,000 miles away on an hourly basis. There's just so much to hold. So as an educator, and it sounds like you're dealing, I mean, you're in the city. I think it's unrealistic to say you cannot have your phone. Like, how do you manage that as an educator? How do you coach the children? Or I don't know. Like, I feel like that is such a difficult position to be.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

So we do say you can't have your phone. We uh allow students to bring their phones to school, but every student has to check their phone at the door in order to get their elevator passed, essentially, to go upstairs. But now students have figured out really sneaky ways, burner phones, different things to get around that. But usually we find out because their phone comes out at one point and we're like, what happens? But by I think I think it's really, you know, I think it's important that we try and hold off phones until a little later in life. Now we're saying no, no phones, uh, smartphones until high school is best practiced. Give your kid a flip phone. It's really hard because parents have allowed the practices of having a smartphone and being on social media. And now we're everyone's saying, no, no, no, essentially you did something wrong. But I don't, I don't look at it that way. I think that's what we knew at the time. And if we say you did something wrong, we're adding shame, which is an emotion that you could have a whole nother podcast about. But, you know, I think it's no, it's okay. This is what happened. How are we gonna course correct? How are we gonna pivot? You can take away your kids' smartphone and give them a flip phone, or you can create boundaries around their smartphone. So again, no phones at school. It's a huge distraction. I think there were a few years with smartphones at schools, but so many schools across the country are actually making it so kids can't have them, which I think is great. I think that's a huge piece. And then I think because kids always have these smartphones in their pockets, because most kids still do. It's a slow, we're making slow progress at walking them back. Kids never have to be uncomfortable. And we talked about this a lot. And grown-ups don't either. It's not just kids.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Um, and and that's that's a huge problem. And that shows up a lot in education.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Oh my God. That is so interesting to say that because literally this morning my husband and I were like doing some breath work together. And like literally the biggest unlock was like, how do you become comfortable in the discomfort? How do you know that when something is hard, like it's just hard and it just is, and you're gonna be fine. Like, how do you find comfort in that? And that is essentially is what we're talking about in terms of capacity. One thing we're talking about, phones, and I I I remember this, and then we were talking about this too, and I wanted to bring it up, and I feel like I'm calling myself out on this, is I'm on my phone. As parents, we're on our phone. So all the time. If we're addicted to dopamine ourselves, I how do you teach your kids not to be?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Oh, we hide. We hide it. Oh, I'd love to say, let's just all be great role models and put our phones away. No, go in the closet and be on your phone. No, uh, no, it's really hard. It's really, really hard. I think about this all the time. I try so hard to have a no-phone role around my kids. And then if I have to be on my phone, I tell, I tell my daughter, my older one, because she can kind of understand she's almost three. I say, Lenny, I have to quickly respond to a work email. Give me two minutes. And she knows, okay. And then I put my phone away. I try never to be like scrolling on Instagram on my phone in front of her. I try to be present, but it's also really easy for me because I go to work every day. I get a break by going to work, in my opinion. And I think if you are a stay-at-home mom, which is one of the hardest jobs out there, or just if you're if you work from home and you're around your kids, if your kids are in a daycare and they're home too, I mean, I don't know. How do you do it? It's it's hard. How do you create those boundaries? But I would say it's kind of like going to the gym. When you haven't gone to the gym in a while, the hardest part is starting. When you're trying to cut back on your technology use, the hardest part is starting. Because once you start to reduce it, you reduce that those dopamine hits. And it makes your technology less and less addictive and it makes it easier and easier to not be on your phone. So if you can figure out what will motivate you to be off your phone, I mean, I can give a long list of reasons why we should be off our phone more, but it has to motivate you. It has to come from within. And then slowly I think you can start to make progress. But it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

It's really, really hard. It's so interesting because we were just talking about this. Today is August 27th, as we're recording this podcast. And Meta yesterday was just the big news is that they've been fined a tremendous amount of money for making social media a dick dang for the children and everything. And I believe this morning, well, we were all out on Instagram. They also, you know, kind of put out this thing where they're calling TikTok and YouTube to join them to protect the youth. I think the question now is what do you think? Do you think that's gonna go far in terms of protecting the youth, quote unquote? Putting a hard stop on it, like what Australia did essentially. Or yet I part of me wants to believe, yes, like it's going to help. But part of me now, like kind of like sitting in it, also feel like, oh, only as as parents, as adults, I feel like we're the only one who can stop that. Like we're the one who has to say this is enough.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I agree with you. And that's what I was thinking when you were saying, will this work? I think they should do it. I think it's great. I think look, the harder it is to access technology or the more regulation we have around social media, the better for kids. But at the end of the day, kids are so smart and they find a way. It doesn't matter whether you're a typical or neurodivergent, like you'll find a way. I actually think neurodivergent kids are even better at finding a way because they're a little scrappier, they have to figure it out. But I think it's I think it's parents. I think there's a movement that I've been like seeing more and more about about parents taking back their powers. And I think a lot of parents are like, well, if I take away their phone, they scream, they have a meltdown, and it's just easier. Like, why get into the battle and the back and forth? So I just let them have their phone. And that makes sense. Let that like it's it makes your life so much easier in that moment. And so it's I think it's working with parents to understand, like, you actually you have the power to say, to create a boundary, to say, we're not gonna be on our phones right now. We are gonna take a phone break, or this is gonna be a phone-free dinner. You have the power to create those limits or to put a block, because there's lots of different apps out there that can block TikTok, block Instagram. Like, why do our kids need Instagram and TikTok?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

I don't know why. I don't think I don't, I mean why do we why do we need it? I mean, that's kind of like the end of the day. To me, it's entertaining, right? It's that's probably why they want it. But like, but that's the thing, right? It's like, and then I'm gonna see that. I mean, I know, like I'm saying, like, this is kind of like my struggle, even with this work. Like, you know, oh, because I want people to know about this work. Like, there is so our mind is so smart. There are so many ways it's gonna come in and justify it that it's gonna make you feel good about doing certain things, right? Of course, but there is a good reason for it. But at the end of the day, like social media is like a phenomenon of the past what 20 years maybe? Well, humans have been doing business and doing all sorts of different things for hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of years, without internet, without social media. So technically we don't need it, but it's just weird. Like there is this weird fear, like, oh no, is it is it FOMO? Is it what? Like, I don't know what it is, but it's like, oh no, but we need to be on it because we need to connect with our friends and family. We need like we never we like we were never be able to do that before. Right, right? Right. Or like, oh, we need to do this for business. This is the way we're generating revenue. There are so many reasons why we justify as to why we need to be on it. Sure, it's a great tool, but it is also a tool that it's a tool. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

And I and I think it's a great tool, and it's it's hard as an adult to not use it as a tool. It's hard to not use it for your business. It's hard to not use it to grow your company and your brand and whatever it might be, because that's what everyone's doing. And I don't, I don't think that's gonna change. But kids for growing companies, at least most kids. Some are, but like their job is to be a kid. It's to play, it's to explore, it's to make mistakes. And you don't need social media for that at all. And I think you were asking before we got on, like, why is it called social media? Because it used it used to be where you were using media to be social. Like you were just calling someone, or you were facetiming them, or you were in a chat with them, and you were using media, your phone, to be social. But now social media, TikTok, Instagram. It's replacing it. Yes, and and you're you're not being social, really. Like you're not on TikTok. I I actually don't have a TikTok, so I don't know if you're social on TikTok.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Me neither. I'm not. I gave up. I'm like, my my old brain, I can't wrap my head around it. It's too fast, and I just it doesn't feel good. But it's interesting because I remember the day when Facebook first came on. I'm like, oh my God, I am finding my friends who I haven't seen for the past 20, 30 years or whatever it was. Um like connected and being able to see what everybody is up to, even though we're like, there's an ocean in between us. So that in itself was wonderful. And that's social media. That's what it should be. And then it just took a whole nother turn.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah. And if you look at a picture of like Instagram when it first launched and Instagram now, everything about it is different.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

That is so interesting. It's it's it's changed. And I think it's it's not we we need to think of it, we need to rebrand social media and give it another word because it's it's so much more than social media nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

Yeah. No, this is interesting because we talk about tech. And one thing that I have, and I'm sure you realize this too, is that tech catered to special needs reads very differently than just tech for the rest of us, like the neurotypical or the general public. One is about creating connection and the other one not so much. What do you see in your world? And I feel like you kind of straddle between those two now, where even though these children have some language-based learning disabilities, they're, you know, like they're they are still considered as a fully capable, functioning person in the society, right? So technically there's there's really no like special accommodations are being made for them. Um so with you straight on those two worlds, like how do you discern um what tech is good and what tech isn't as an educator, as a parent, as someone who advises what other parents are gonna, you know, should do. Um can you kind of like talk a little bit about that? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

So I don't in my day-to-day work with children or people who are nonverbal. And if you're nonverbal because uh ASC, so autism, or there's a you have another disability where you're nonverbal, I think technology is amazing. And a lot so often you're nonverbal and you can you still have all the thoughts, all the feelings. You want to communicate, you want to create connection. And then technology is a lifesaver and it's incredible. I I also think in some ways it can be dangerous because like you can really isolate yourself with it, but in general, I think it allows you to communicate with the outside world, and that's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Can you say a little bit about that? You can isolate yourself. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Well, and and this goes into a whole nother topic in a sense, but since social media has existed, mental health has had a huge decline. And I'm not talking about co since COVID, because it started before COVID. Depression and anxiety has just gone through the roof. And a big part of that is because you it feels like you don't need to connect in person because you can connect online with bots, with you can feel like you're connecting on Instagram, like looking at other people. Nowadays, you can create a whole AI personality that you can actually, you know, talk to. So it feels like you're having that connection and you're getting Those dopamine hits. So in the moment it feels better, but you're really isolating yourself. And it's not that fulfilling connection that you get from having a face-to-face conversation and in interacting and engaging. So technology is amazing for people who are nonverbal. And it can also, you have to be a little careful with it, especially for younger kids, just helping them figure it out. And then I would say for my day-to-day, we really try to not use technology. The majority of our kids have dyslexia. And to remediate dyslexia, the best supports are multi-sensory. So it's about seeing the words, saying the sound, tapping, counting sounds. It's not about doing speech to text. You really that that makes it harder. And I would say in general, when you have a learning disability or not, learning on a screen is always inferior. You don't process it in the same way. It doesn't allow for like spatial anchoring, which allows our hippocampus to encode it. So it ideally you're learning on paper. You're maybe you're learning on like a big board, but learning on a screen, it does not, it doesn't, we can't learn the same way. It's really hard. There was all these articles recently about colleges giving abbreviated reading assignments and telling people ahead of time how long the reading is, how many pages, because kids they're struggling to even read or pay attention for so long. And I think it also connects. Oh wow. And they're not looking and because of that, they're not learning in the same way. I just was listening or reading something. I don't remember saying textbooks now so often are online. So you're not reading them in the same way you're scrolling. And when you scroll, even if you're reading, when you're doing the scrolling, your brain isn't processing it in the same way. And so that so again, back to your question, I would say if we can, it's always better on paper. And then when a kid gets older, if they have a job that's really demanding, and let's say their dyslexia wasn't remediated or it was, but writing is still such a laborious task, then have speech to text. Then use it in your professional life where maybe you really need it to make your life easier. And of course, there's always exceptions to the rule. There's always, you know, certain kids where other things are going on, and and it makes sense to make the accommodation. But I'd say in general, less screens are more.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Less screens, less screens all around. That's kind of why that like that's kind of where we're going. But you know, at the same time, I mean, realistically, I don't think we're ever gonna go back, right? As it's like the screens are here to stay. Like it's not, it's not going anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

But schools are, I would say schools are really making an effort. And there's this other organization, Project Reboot, that's going into schools and really helping them, making an effort to have more screens free schools. And I do think screens are walking it at screens, schools are walking it back and they're trying. And we're seeing that a lot in the city, and I think in different parts of the country, because we're seeing the negative effects academically and social emotionally. We're really seeing the negative effects. And I'd say it's easier for us to do it as a school. It's easier for us to take a stance versus as a parent, it's a little harder, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

What would you do if you were the parent? I mean, you have kids and and and what is your they're still young though, right? How old are they? They're young. They're almost 10 months and almost three.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

They're young. Yeah. They're yeah, they're babies. Yeah. Yeah. We have a screen-free household. We don't have a TV in my house. I I'm that annoying parent where I'm like, oh, we go over to someone's house and there's a screen, and I'm like, oh, can we like not? We came over for a play date. Can we play? And I can like feel my mom friends being like, oh, you're so annoying. Like, can't we just gab and you know let the kids watch TV? And I'm like, uh, we can gab and let the kids play in the other room.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Yes. Yeah. Go let them be kids. So in that, in that experience, because I think you're living it, yeah. Talk a little bit about that, just the pressure and all the thinkings. I think that's kind of one of the things, right? Peer pressure is real. And sure, like I remember those early days. I mean, even to this day, you know, my kids are 12 and almost 10. The parents still get together and and talk about things, and it still feels hard sometimes like trying to go against the grain. Okay, you know, and and it's a lot of pressure. And now you're a social worker, right? Yet you know so much stuff that others don't. So, like, you know, we're talking about like you're centered, you're like, I'm for in all this. Maybe you're not.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I don't know. I don't know. I always say I'm not a toddler expert, uh, but I'm like kindergarten and above. So I'll I'll ask my toddler, I'll call my toddler expert, social work and psychologist, for example, all the time. Be like, my daughter did this, is this normal? Like, but no, I think it's I think it's really hard. I think it goes back to as well, like, I have help. I have full-time help, and my parents live nearby. So I have a community that is able to support me because if I didn't, I could really see myself being like, okay, Sunday morning, you watch TV so I can cook and clean and do whatever I need to. But instead, my parents come into the city and they they take my kids out to the park and I can do all those things. So I think it's easy to sit here from where I uh where I'm sitting and be like, oh, don't do screens, they're bad. But the practice is so much harder and and going against the green. I mean, I think about this sometimes. My daughter doesn't know any of the Disney princesses. We we just did Moana on the Tony Box last night. We listened to it over and over again because I'm like, you got Moana's the best. And, you know, she doesn't know the princesses, she doesn't know the deep Bluey TV. Like, she knows who Bluey is, but not really. But I'm I I'm okay with that. It doesn't bother me so much. I think it'll it will get harder when she gets older. Right now, she doesn't ask for TV. I think it's right now it's still an easy period. I think it's harder when I see it here. I there were one or two kids in each year. There are one or two kids who either don't have smartphones or have flip phones. And it's a constant battle with the parents. And the parents will always be like, Can you talk to them about why they shouldn't have a smartphone or why this is bad? And we're like, sure, we can help, but it's not gonna change much at home. It's hard. It's hard not to feel the peer pressure of doing it all. And I think it will get harder for me as I get as my kids grow.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, there is a book. Now you mentioned it, I think we should mention it. It's called The Amazing Generation. Are you familiar with it? Oh, it's is it Jonathan? I know Amazing Generation. Yeah, it's by uh it's by Jonathan Hayes.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, he wrote The Anxious Generation.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Right, right. So like it was interesting is like, and I'm you know, but we'll drop the the link for the listeners below too in the podcast, is that I actually bought that book for my kid. My 12-year-old, now 12-year-old, like just put it on the, just read it. And I actually wanted to do a book club with a bunch of her grade, but that didn't happen. What was interesting is like after she read it, she goes like, oh yeah, I don't need social media. Like, I'm not gonna do it. Like she said it herself. I'm like, great! Like that's that's like the most of the battle. Like, so long you understand. But I think in the book, and I kind of flipped through it in the book that talked about like what happens with your brain and you know, and and all the things, and explained it. It's a graphic novel, it is very easy to read. And she just like, okay, I got it. And I'm like, thank you, Jonathan. I didn't have to do that. He's he's incredible, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

And he's one of the pioneers in in this field. Yeah. Um, he you read The Anxious Generation? I just flipped through it. I didn't, I didn't do cover to cover. I probably should. It's amazing because it really breaks this down. I mean, it gets into every piece of why social media is bad and technology is is is dangerous. And I and I do think that's a huge part of it. Like, how can we educate our kids and empower them, especially when they're around your daughter's age, to to realize that and not want to be on social media? Because I don't know how outside of the dopamine hits, I don't know how much they really like it.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Interesting. It's true, because it doesn't improve their life. It's just talk kind of, and most of the time it's only them how miserable their life is compared to others. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

And and how they're not skinny enough and cool enough and have the newest clothes, or or for boys, like how they're not good at sport, you know, for going as stereotypes, like they they don't have the same sneaker. I mean on every gender, it it is just comparing you. And so it is a constant way, which I also think this contributes to the mental health crisis, you're just constantly comparing yourself to others and feeling not great about yourself. And a lot of times it's not even the reality because social media is usually not real.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

No, it's all curated, it's a curated content platform, and everybody is only showing the best part of themselves. And yeah, we are complex, multifaceted, flawed beings, and we don't show that. Yeah. So it is it is definitely not the reality. Yeah. You know that moment your kid is melting down or gone quiet and you have no idea what to say. This is Rita, host of Once Upon the Feeling, and co-founder of Gucci. My co-founder and I make Gucci because we've stood in that moment ourselves. Gucci is an app built around storytelling. Because kids don't process big feelings through lectures, they process them through stories of others experiencing similar things. Whether it be loss, fear, or just straight up pain. The stuff that is really, really hard. Gushi gives you the words for them, and honestly, sometimes for you too. But we built it as parents, living this in real time, and how to vetted by child development experts. So it's not just sweet, it is sound. You can download the Gushi app on the Apple App Store, and now when those hard moments come, you will have the right words right at your fingertips.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

I was thinking of something else about with kids and social media and being a parent. I think a big part is us being able to tolerate our child's discomfort. And when we can't, then it's so a quick fix in the moment is giving them a screen. It is. And so it's like, can we sit with their discomfort and be okay with it? And can we be comfortable being uncomfortable? Like, if I go out with my friends and my daughter is having a tantrum, which never happens because she's perfect, but she, you know, I it's uncomfortable. There's like a little bit of shame and I'm like, why my daughter's the only one having it? Like, look how well behaved all these other kids are. And and, you know, okay, she's I know it's normal, it's typical. I've seen all their kids have tantrums too. But I think if we can sit with that discomfort and just model for our kids too, like, I see you're really upset because or really feeling really frustrated because I said we can't have ice cream right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

But I think I wonder that discomfort, and this is an interesting part. The discomfort also comes from other people judging you, right? I think we'll ask people we're out there is like, oh, we're disturbing others and people aren't, you know, they're having dinner and they want to have a quiet time. Like we have all of these stories in our heads, but at the same time, I feel like as a society, how are we showing up for each other? When you're on an airplane and there is a kid screaming, how are we how are we showing up for that family? Are we saying, oh my God, like take the baby away? This is so annoying. That makes everybody feel shitty, right? Or is this like, oh, they're having a really hard time. How do I help? How do I show up? And I feel like collectively as a society, as we learn how to view these discomforts, how to tolerate those to come discomfort, like ourselves, once we come better at it, then the capacity collectively increases. But right now, nobody wants it. Right. And then so like when that happens to us, it's like, oh, that is such a nuisance. Like you're such a nuisance. Your kid is, you know, be a parent, do better, like, you know, and then the old school, like, you know, if it wasn't like it wouldn't have spanked them or whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

But we don't feel that collective responsibility because we've lost so much community and connection to go back to connection. Like even with our neighbors, you know, kids can't go run around the streets nowadays. You know, people are worried, maybe you don't know your neighbors. And it used to be like your whole community was helping raise your children. And so there was that collective, like, we're all in it, we're all here to help. Um, and I think that made it so there was a lot less shame. And now it's a lot of things feel shameful. And you never know when someone's gonna whip out their smartphone and record you. Hopefully that doesn't happen so often.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

But you know, yeah. Yeah. So, like, let's say if you had a magic wand in your neck of the woods and New York City is gonna function, it's gonna look very differently than me being in the suburb of LA. Like, that's kind of brainstorm. Like, what would you do? What would you do? What would the some of the five things that you would do to kind of like start finding our way back to each other?

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Well, I wish that they just put people with the same age children in one apartment building. I feel like that would be amazing. Like, I've had I've had just like fantasies about we we had a downstairs neighbor who they had a baby the same age as my youngest. And I, and sadly they moved to Australia, the nerve of them. We really liked them. And I had this fantasy that, like, oh, they could watch our kids on the monitor, and we could go to like the neighborhood bar, and they could, I mean, I don't know if I ever would have done that, but like this was I was I was imagining all these great things for our family. It's like their kid could come sleep upstairs in the same room and they could go out and then we could go do that. Like all these things that could happen, and just even like, oh, on a snow day, our kids would have each other and we can play and have in-house entertainment. And so I think if if that would be incredible, if like all the people with kids similar ages could kind of live near each other in the same apartment buildings, and then you could have this community where like built-in help, you help each other. And then I I wish that it felt a little safer for kids to just go to the playground by themselves, starting at a younger age. Because I don't, I actually am not sure what age I'd feel comfortable sending her my girls to the playground by themselves.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

My kids are 12 and 10. That hasn't happened yet. So that's where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

We know kids need unsupervised play to learn, to make mistakes, to navigate a conflict, to figure it out, to feel a little insecure and left out. Just a little, not too much, but a little bit. And to like figure out like I'm resilient, I can do this, I can, I can, you know, resolve this conflict or I can climb this monkey bar or ladder and and and figure it out. Oh, I fell I got hurt, I'm not dying, I don't need to go to the ER. I I can try it again, but but that's not really the world that we live in anymore.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

It was interesting you mentioned about like, you mentioned about like, you know, being in an apartment with like similar aged children. And actually, one of my biggest dreams, and I'm trying to do that within my neighborhood, is actually getting everybody from all different groups, all different ages, to come together. So like the older kids can watch the younger kids. And the younger kids love the older kids. And definitely the teenagers or the adolescent can go help the elderly with their yard work. And then maybe somebody who is retired can be home and and cook a whole bunch of food. So, like the other ones, there is this beautiful synergy when people are also in like in different stages of their life can come and fill the void. But at the end of the day, this is interesting because I know in the beginning we were talking about connection, and one of the things that I mentioned is that you have to feel safe to connect. We don't feel safe right now as a society, do we? Well, it's hard to feel safe. So many bad things happening. Devil's advocate. Is it really to so much things happening, or we're just constantly bombarded by it?

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Oh, it's for sure. I mean, I think there's maybe a little more happening because I I think a lot because of social media. I think there's more ment the mental health crisis. I think the environment, you know, global warming, there's more natural disasters happening. But I think there's always been something happening. There has. And like you said, we're now just bombarded by it. I mean, there were earthquakes in Colombia, then, and you know, it's like, oh, how are we gonna help Colombia and the city's there? And then the massive flooding in Nepal just happened, you know, it's yeah, it's always something. Constantly.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yeah, and whereas like 30 years ago, you probably hear about a ones, and then that was the end of it. There's pros and cons to it. One is they're able to get the aid at the side at the same time, we're like, okay, what else is going on that with the world as we know it is ending? I feel like it's like it's like this like Armageddon, what's it, apocalypse kind of a thing happening? And and and and it's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

But I think your nervous no, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

No, go ahead. I was just gonna say your nervous system barely has time to recover from what you just saw on social media because you see all the images and then you're on to another disaster. And and how are you ever supposed to feel safe and calm in your body enough to like, you know, function throughout the day? It's really hard.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Yeah. Okay, I remember the the the thought that I that came to my mind. It was like the thought that skipped me, it came back is this notion of technology. And I think like this is interesting because I remember there was uh it was a chat with another school parent here in LA. And you know, obviously there's this big thing, you know, amongst all the parents about all technology is bad and da-da-da-da-da. And this particular parent. Caltech graduate, like, you know, and and the way that he framed it was intro it, it's it's insightful because technology as the way that we use it, it's referring to this this box, this computer or a device, you know, like that technology. But that's technically, technically, tech that's not technology, right? Like, you know, like anything that helps you, like, you know, a spoon can be is is technology if if you want to kind of like really define what technology is, um, as the tools and things that allow us to do things. And it just advanced to a point where it's really powerful. So I wonder if like a better way to frame this is the intention behind it. Is and this is like, you know, I feel like this is me kind of talking to all of the tech founders out there, like we have an app. I'm not like, you know, I I I chose that as a way to deliver information. So yes, there is value there. But I think the call out now is that when we are creating the technology, whatever this may be, what is our intention behind it? And I think like that's probably where things start to kind of like get sorted into their prospective buckets. Is that are we here to connect or are we here to just make things easy and sweep things under the rug and just pretend that it does or to make money in in many, yeah, money and power. That's kind of where we're at.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

I was just something I was just reading was just about how so many of the app founders and in meta and all these big companies, they hire people who study the brain to really hook you in and to, you know, whatever sound the app does, or whatever picture, whatever reward you get, you know, they they want you to get hooked in. So what is the intention behind it? It's for them to make money, I'd say. Maybe it started as something nice. Like maybe Mark Zuckerberg's Facebook was a way to connect, but then it kind of kept on growing. And I think greed and money, and that could be a whole nother yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

Yeah. But that is an antidote for us as a user, right? Yeah. Is is to put on that lens is like while they're creating these content out there for people to consume, what is their intent? What do we think their intent is? Like, what is an intention behind it? That that may be a very powerful lens in the filter to decide to engage or not to engage. And that's the thing, like they can throw all this stuff out there. If you don't consume, you're not affected. You can totally turn it off. We have the the autonomy to do that. But that's again, that's kind of like going back to like, do we goes back to this safety or sovereignty? And you know, our bodies love dopamine, like it is. What it is. Like he just loves it. And it's have something that, you know, as I feel like for us parents is so heightened because it's not just about us anymore. His father's other little kids, you know, and we're really kind of creating a world that they have to live in. We may not have to, but they are the one who has to deal with the consequence of our actions.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

It is our actions too, because again, like we have the power. Well, we only have so much power, but we we have the power to, you know, not give smartphones to monitor what they're doing, to put in boundaries, but it's hard. It's really hard. But I I also it makes me think of your girls. Like, I wonder what they would think or what they said or what it says in The Amazing Generation, but like what why they think like these apps are created or what they're for, because they're at the age where they could definitely be self-reflective on it.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

And but they still definitely they're still definitely reaching for the dopamine though, right? That is such an addictive thing. I mean some that's a thing. If like I can't get off Instagram, if I can't get rid of that, you know, me as like a 47-year-old grown-up woman, if I can't say no, I don't want that, I cannot expect them to have that type of restraint and self-control. Their brain isn't even fully developed yet.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

It's so hard. And they're, you know, at the time where their executive functioning part of their brain is like really developing like how to make a plan, how to set goals, how to achieve that, how to have the skills and the follow-through to achieve that. And technology or social media just really messes with that and it makes it so much harder because everything gets interrupted.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Because now they no longer have to think, they no longer have to do all the things. AI effectively just removed all of that friction. Yep. And it feels like it happened overnight. AI. Yeah. It kind of did. Yeah. Maybe not for us, it did. Many people have worked on it for for many decades. But as soon as they turn it on, it's like the flat gate opened. And I feel that in myself, right? It's like, oh, if I can write an article, if I can write something so quick, why do I have to spend days and nights and and and all that, you know, to to to like wordsmith and all this stuff. I mean, granted, I'm 47. I mean, I'm kind of like on the decline. So I have all the reasons, but it you start to think, like, with anything, even with Facebook, right? We talked about in the beginning, where oh, it was so great to connect with people we haven't seen for two decades, like, you know, and like that was good. But how as a collective do we to someone who's gone too far? And a lot of the times we have to go too far. So maybe we have to go too far to realize, oh shoot, we overshot, right? And so I feel like this kind of like a full circle moment where as humans, like sometimes we have to cross that line, we have to really break that boundary to realize there was a boundary at the first place. You know, I think uh I yeah, I think maybe perhaps this is life. I don't know. Like this is it's interesting, a lot to think about.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

Yeah, and and maybe with this lawsuit, like that's the too far. And that's you know, starting to really do this change. But let's see, let's see what comes of it and you know what it looks like in practice.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

So I know I want I I gave I I asked you this last time when we were setting up the call, and I'm like, well, I wanted you to think about it and I want you to share like if you had a magic wand and there is like the perfect technology app, whatever you want to call it for you, based on what you know and everything, what would it look like? What would it have and why would it not?

SPEAKER_01 47:51

So this was really hard. And I it's I was asking some of my coworkers about this too. I'm like, what would you do? And they're all like, I don't know. You know, first I was thinking, like, can I make an app more for the parents to help their kids, especially in regards to technology? Like every time your kid wants to be on a phone, like, here's another activity you could do with them, or like this is something you could say, or something just to motivate parents and give them affirmations, like you got this, and like you're you're amazing, you can do this. But then I was like, okay, for the kids, let me like go to for the children. Uh, but I think it would be incredible if there could be some kind of just platform that took social media back to its bare bones, where it was really social media. And if you are, you know, under the age of 18, that's what a phone looks like for you. And that, you know, it's just a front page where it's like you could call or text or FaceTime your friends and you can send pictures. But but within this, there needs to be a lot of monitoring. So AI come come in, you know, there's group chats are such a horrible thing, but they can also be great. So for like plans, but that's about it. So, like, how can you monitor group chat where if you try to send a mean message, it like comes back to you and it's like, no, this goes against community guidelines. And same with images, and you know, there has to be a lot of of monitoring and same with like there's group FaceTime. So, like, if on this app you want to have a group FaceTime so you can talk to your friends, you know, if if it starts to become mean, it turns off or it kicks that person out. Well, it probably just needs to turn off because then everyone will talk about that person who gets kicked out. So, so something where it can be like social media for what it was meant to be. And and I think that could be amazing and that could help keep connection. Where where I work, kids come from all five boroughs. They come from New Jersey, they come from Westchester, so the suburbs of New York City. And, you know, it's hard for us to build community. We have to work really hard on it. And a lot of it's online. And so, like if these kids had this platform that felt more safe, where they didn't have to worry about being bullied or someone saying something mean, you know, could that be a helpful, useful application for our kids to continue to build connection and social skills? Because we didn't even talk about how like our kids struggle with social skills now because so much is online. So, you know, is there an app what are you seeing in terms of the social skills? It's terrible. You know, and sometimes I'm like, oh, it's where I work and the kids I work with in my private practice. You know, I'm seeing the kids who are struggling the most. But then I talk to other friends in the field and they're seeing it too. We're just the social skills are out the window, uh, just picking up on nuances and and you know, how like we've practiced getting into an elevator, which maybe is is uh, you know, in the suburbs or other places, that's a thing. But in New York City, everyone has elevators and our kids get into elevators and they're like screaming and jumping. And I'm like, you're 13, like what? Like, yeah, so but it's it's everywhere, and and it's it's a big problem. And also something else that we're thinking about doing is implementing DBT, which is dialectual behavioral therapy, which is for people who can't tolerate discomfort, but at a much more extreme level, but we're we're seeing that across the board too. And again, not just by school, schools for typical developing children as well. So, you know, can there be an app where where the connection can actually build and it can build on the day-to-day? That would be great. Uh, I think if it could really be restricted, and if we hit all our other smartphones or other technology. The amount of times that we've told a kid, you know, or work with them, like you have to earn your technology or no technology at home, and then they'll like find their sister's iPad or their mom's phone. And so it's a collective effort.

SPEAKER_00 52:08

Yeah, it's try to crack your passcode, like it's happening in this household, and it's been like they're trying to see. And I'm like, no, like you can't. And they're like, oh, I know what it is. I want to guess what it is. But it's so interesting because I think that is a very important conversation to have, right? You know, as as much of a backlash, as much of uh, you know, meta or whoever they are, all the big tech bros are, you know, in the news, how bad technology is and whatnot. I mean, it is unrealistic to say, like, you know, we're done, we're gonna fludge everything down the toilet, and tomorrow we're gonna go back to a world with no Facebook, no Instagram, and all this thing. That's not gonna happen. But how it's one of those things, like, I love to, I have this visual, like, you know, almost like trying to break a fight between two three-year-olds is that I see you're really upset. I see you really want to do that right now. And I validate you. It's great that, yeah, I see it. You really want it. I'm just not gonna let you do that. Like there is no, like, but you know, yeah, you can want all you want and you can have big feelings about it. You can scream, you can whatever. I'm just not gonna let you hurt this kid or this whatever. And so, like, how do we use what we have? And what is that intention? It always comes back comes down to intention as we are building something. And I feel like this is, you know, this is this is one of those, like, what's the word? This is my wish list to all the tech founders' parents out there building, right? Is this that, you know, is it about you wanting to exit in 10 years and make a billion dollars, or is this really about setting up, you know, generations to come like for success. So we as humans can continue to coexist and and you know, thrive on this planet. And connect. And connect. We're social animals. We are. We need to get out there. I think after this call, I can't know it was interesting. I'm like, I have that we have a neighbor who has four kids from eight to zero. We have a set of grandparents who I think they're about to become grandparents, which is really exciting. Yeah, no, but it's also high time to us like kind of go back to our own neighborhood and like start creating something. Like, whose kids can I take? Yeah, yeah. And who can take my kids? Like all of it.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

And it's a lost art, like being and living in a community and leaning on them. Yeah. I people are scared to do it and they just don't do it anymore.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

We need to start. I think we all need to kind of like start, start, get get us started, you know, whether it's just hanging out for dinner or oh, tonight is a lunar eclipse, go look, check out the moon. Today is it's a lunar eclipse. I think most uh most of the North America will see it if you're a weather permit. Yeah. So like finding those moments. Yeah, definitely. Oh, this was so fun. I love having thank you so much. There's so much. Thank you, Rita.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

I could talk to you forever, and we didn't we didn't even talk about your app, which I think is the best thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Oh, thank you. Well, a little plug for my app. There is a lot of exciting things coming, and I'm really leaning into this connection thing. And I really welcome everybody, use it, support it. Uh, because right now everybody is working pro bono and it's hard because we still have families to feed. And so I think at some point we're gonna, I think there is a little feature in there that is there's a there it's behind a paywall. But this particular feature is came from this calling for building connection and what we have built in there is for us to record our voice reading the story that can be played back to the children. So if you think about like, you know, mommy is going on a business trip and I'm gone because of time difference or whatever, the child can actually turn to that. And then again, the app, it's kind of interesting because I have seen parents who didn't understand what we were trying to do hand the tablet to their two-year-old and the two-year-old immediately tossed it to the side because it's just a library, right? And it's pictures. It doesn't matter how hard you press it, nothing is going to jump out at you. Yeah, it's very, it is the most anti-dopaming app there is, I think, other than like, you know, outside of hoopla and libby. And this particular feature, I feel so good because uh I understand a lot of the children's can't read up until they're seven or eight. And the intention behind it has always been, oh, this is meant to be used, you know, when a parent and the child are together, right? Even though a lot of times when we think about iPads and phones, usually we use it as a digital babysitter. It's not meant for that. And particular piece about the audio where we can record our voice and so the kit can play it back, and you can send the request for someone else far away in your family or friends to read it. And it will be saved in the library. That's incredible. For the kids who listen. That's incredible. Yeah, and then so I I this is not only to connect real time, this is for to connect across generations, grandparents, you know, like all the things. And I I I'm really excited about that that feature to be fully online. We're still debugging a little bit right now, but we'll be fully online. So like we can really start anchoring in storytelling and creating connections amongst families, and and hopefully one day we'll be this library where you know there will be just be books and your loved ones' voices reading them to you. That is so special. When is it? Do you have an estimate of when it's gonna come out? It's on right now, but then there's some bugs that my CTO is debugging right now. I played with it the other day. I paid my own subscription fee. I'm like, I just need to see how this is holding work. Like, don't worry about it, I'll pay for it. And the sound quality was great. There are some like, you know, minute things that we have to adjust. And then he's working on it. He also has a new baby, so I'm like kind of giving him a little leeway on that. But yeah, but it's it's gonna be, I think it's gonna be pretty cool. I want to play with that. And I was just like pitching it to my neighbor. She's like, Oh my god, my sister can record a story for my third time and he's gonna flip out. I'm like, Yeah, because he could hear her.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

It's amazing. I'm thinking about my mother-in-law in California, who my daughter's always like, I want to call Grammy, and now she can have a book recorded by Grammy.

SPEAKER_00 58:41

Yeah, still call Grammy.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Oh, yeah, we have to do both, obviously. But we can't call her 24-7 as my daughter would like to. So, you know. Yes, yes, yes, maybe like once or twice a day, and then she can listen to the book.

SPEAKER_00 58:57

Yeah, so it's it's it's it's I just I'm really excited about like building something that really fosters that and it's fun, fun stuff. That's incredible, that's so exciting. Yeah, so that's a plug for the app. It's free. Everyone should go download it. Yes, it's called Gucci, G-O-O-S-H-I. You can find it at the app store. We have not launched it for Android yet because of technical difficulties. But yeah, I mean, the content itself is free for everybody. The paywall is only for the recording portion of it because we got a feed off family. So, anyways, thank you so much. I have to come to New York and see you. I have to come and see you. Yeah, come together. One of my girlfriends, yeah, one of my girlfriends yesterday just said, Oh, we need to go to New York together. I'm like, yes, let's do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

Sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

So anytime.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you again for listening to this week's Once Upon a Feeling. I hope you walked away with something new, something different, something that you didn't know you had. I truly enjoyed every moment of making this episode, and I cannot wait to share what we have in store with the next guest exploring the same topic, connection, because it means so many different things. I appreciate you. If you love this episode, love this podcast, and the thoughts and the information that it sparks in you, please give us a five star review and share with your friends and family. Take good care. I love you, and I will see you next time.