SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi friends, welcome to this week's Once Upon the Feeling. I'm your host, Rita. This season we're exploring connection. What is connection? What does it mean to connect with another human being? What does it mean to connect deeply with ourselves, with our inner child? I truly believe all of this is very central to our human experience. I can't wait to dive in into this topic with our guests this week, and I am so excited that you're here. Take good care. Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this week for our Once Upon the Feeling podcast episode. I am so happy. Today we have Mindy Brotsky. She is a licensed clinical social worker practicing in Washington, D.C. and North Carolina. Hi, Mindy. Hey. I am so excited because we have been trying to chat for a good two months now, and we finally made it happen. So I am just beyond thrilled. How are you? Good. I'm so happy we're doing this today. Thanks for having me. Well, thank you for I mean, this is like I love doing this, just talking to everyone and brainstorming and connecting and talking all things, kids, family, and ourselves. It's my favorite thing to do. Before we jump into what we're gonna jump into, tell everybody a little bit about your work, your background, what you do, why you know your favorite color, all of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

We say my favorite color is the rainbow, which sometimes stumps kids. I'm like, no, I'm sure it's the whole thing. So I'm a therapist and I love working in this space. So I work a lot in the realm of grief, deaf and non-deaf losses. So that includes a lot of things. I work with people that are dealing with life transitions, perinatal mental health, so going through the journey of having kids and sometimes things not working the way they want to, or even just identity changes of becoming a parent. I work a lot with people as they're dealing with chronic illness, and then on the other side of that with family and loved ones. Some of the my favorite parts of the work is doing group work and spending time with communities and connecting people that are kind of feeling like there's no one else that gets what they're going through, and then they kind of find out that they're actually not alone and they're not supposed to be alone. So I like to be the one to help be a part of creating villages, and that's a lot of what I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

That's beautiful. I remember when we first chatted back in June, we had an initial date set, and then I was like, oh my god, like I had to be scheduled or something happened because I have it's like a last-minute thing that I found out one of my dear friend's husband passed away unexpectedly. It was it it caught everybody by surprise. He was only 52 years old. And, you know, my husband and I, we made some quick arrangements. We were able to go to his memorial, and there was one of those most beautiful memorial services up in Mammoth Mountain, just a few hours away from where I live. And as I was sitting there and listening to all of his loved ones come on stage and talk about what kind of person he was, what he did, and how he made them feel and talk to his wife. His wife actually coached me running my very first marathon, and actually, a few I'm not a runner, by the way. So that's like a big thing for me to go through it, and they're just the loveliest people. I guess my thing was is that a lot of the times what I realized is that a lot of the times we don't realize how we how good we had it until the person is gone. So there is this constant future planning, you know, whether it's with our with our spouse or with our parents or even with especially with our children. And that was kind of one of those moments that kind of like dropped in for me. And we're like, oh my God, like we're constantly planning the future, we're constantly planning the future, and we forget to be in the present. And as soon as that future is no longer there, we immediately go about like, oh, how it was like this this grief all of a sudden hits you like a pile of bricks. Yeah. Uh I don't know, can we explore that a little bit? Like, how does how does how how do you see that in your patience, in your practice? How does that manifest in itself? And how do we reconcile that, I guess? My gosh, that's such a good question.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I mean, I think that's, you know, not all of us put the the name on it, anticipatory grief, when we're thinking about what happens when this person is gone. And a lot of times we try not to do that, right? Denial in itself is such a helpful coping tool. Not every coping tool is bad, right? It just helps you get through, right? It I usually my baseline is is this getting in the way of you living life the way that you want to? For a lot of people, I think this idea that we don't really think about things ending or people dying until we actually have to. It's a way of coping, right? And our our brains are so smart. Our brains want to protect us from anything perceived as pain or being unsafe. And I think that's usually sort of the place of well, what do how do we talk to our kids about, well, we we will die eventually, you know? And no, I I I think a lot about that. And I I think it's it's a practice, and and sometimes it's doing things like reading, reading books like what you have on Gucci and being able to even open up discussions about things that they've never thought about before and letting them know it's okay, it's okay to think about it.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

What are the best practices, if you will, to talk to children about these kinds of things? Because I think my generation, I'm I'm, you know, Gen X, I'm like a late Gen X. My parents, how they taught me is we don't. Yeah. We don't we don't talk about it. So it is interesting. And sometimes I see some of, you know, in the mom groups that I belong to is is that we we we don't really know how. And sometimes I feel like we're projecting our own anxiety and discomfort. So when you are devising families with kids, with teenagers, maybe some of them are seen as more anxious type. How do you broach the subject without sending them to overdrive? How do you broach a subject so you they don't start losing sleep at night thinking that the world isn't gonna end the next day?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah. I mean, there's a few things. The first thing that comes to mind is tell the truth. And and my teacher, David Kessler, who's you know, world-renowned grief educator, who has just been taught me so much over the years, but David always says tell the truth. And I think one of the things is that he said that'll stop with me was if you don't, someone else will. And so, you know, that we can keep the truth short and we can, you know, and and that's a great place to write talk to professionals about to help you guide it, right? You know, sometimes people, most of the time, people die when they're very, very, very, very old, right? And sometimes it's not like that. So, like, you know, you can find ways to talk at the different ages. And I I have a six and a half year old who has now gone through a few different death losses from like his hundred-year-old great-grandmother, who I was very close with most recently this summer, his grandfather. And I think just, you know, my my parents, my mom always spoke very openly because she lost both of her younger brothers. So she on what in one way it was, we don't need to be sad, we can think about the memories. And that maybe worked at some times. I think my my twist on that is it's definitely okay to be sad too, right? Right, right. And and then she had a lot of things that keeps them alive, even today. I never knew my great-grandmother, my great-grandmother. But she, whenever I see a penny on the ground that's heads up, she would always say, Mama Minnie's thinking of you. And so I had this great touchstone, and I still do, and now my kids do it for their great grandmother. You know?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

That is so beautiful. I think this is this is kind of an interesting thing. And, you know, and this is kind of when we think about grief, I know most of our brain goes immediately to these big, ginormous, almost really, really difficult, if not impossible, things to hold. Like death, like somebody moving across the country or across the world, or you know, never seeing your friends again because you graduated and you're going to different schools, whatever that may be, you're moving away. It's always these really, really big things. But when, you know, I have two girls, one just turned 12, and I realize, like, oh my god, like she is becoming a woman. And while it is exciting, and it is, you know, fascinating just watching her kind of grow into this person. I miss the little girl. I miss the little one who comes, you know, and wants to take a picture of herself and then sees it and you know, wants to come and cuddle all the time. Like, I miss that. I guess these little moments, for me, I'm grieving that. I'm grieving like, I mean, heck, I'm also grieving that all this gray hair and all, like, you know, she's getting older. That means I'm getting older, right? Yeah. How do we create some sort of a path from normalizing these little moments and really giving these little moments attention to the bigger things? I mean, like, is it is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

I think one of the things is modeling for our kids that you can grieve fully and live fully. And so that can look like, you know, having these emotional moments of, for instance, seeing your daughter change and not be this little kid that's crawling into bed with you at three in the morning anymore. If I hope. I'm new to this. But you know, you know, they seeing seeing you feel that, they might not see every one of your tears, but they see you grieve that loss and go to work and live life, right? This is this delicate practice that I think life ends up being all about is can we can we practice holding both the grief and pleasure of living? So we can do those in small ways too, with those losses, you know, with with all kinds with all of those kinds of changes, right? Even I I mean my my kid went to back to school today. And so, you know, this loss of having this summertime, we were just away for a whole week together, just the family full attention, right? And now you're being dropped back off at school with a new teacher, a new place. These little ambiguous losses, I think that you know, we feel when our kids get grow, and also that they feel when they start something brand new that is different. A loss of knowing everyone in the classroom, right? A loss of even knowing where my classroom is. Um, and and allowing, allowing space for all of that. We can our emotions are important, right? Everyone needs to be everybody's grief needs to be witnessed. Like I always say, you can always ask me questions. I always tell my kids, right? Ask any questions you want. So you can let let them lead too when it comes to their own losses and adjusting and and just making sure that we answer them without, you know, you know, we can do that without tell the truth without, you know, over explaining it, right? And but but I think modeling it is so important. The way, you know, how you were saying, sometimes we take on our parents' anxiety and pass it down in that way around those things. We have this opportunity to show that we can hold both grief and and living life.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah, I think, but that's the key too, is that we have to be able to do that. And so much of that, like we're still practicing. Like we are trying to figure out like how does that feel like in our body? It is like, I feel like that's like a lifelong journey. Um, sometimes I don't even realize that I'm grieving. I feel like that's kind of the thing. It's just like, oh wow, like what is that feeling? And and really kind of like coming down to it. One thing that I realized too, and I would love to kind of get your point of view on this, is the notion of connection. And a lot of times I a lot of times we grieve because of the separation, like we're being separated from from something, from someone that we don't want to lose connection with in your practice and just, you know, whether it's with your child or your patients. Uh how do you create a container? What are the seven of the things that we need to pay attention to, be deliberate with in holding the space so the person who is grieving can find their footing again? I find myself a lot of the times, do I, do I not? Do I, do I not? Do I reach out? Am I too much?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

What are the I guess I'm sure there is no one size fits all. But if there is some guiding questions that you can share with us so we can at least have some sort of a north star when we're in put in that situation as a griever and as someone who is witnessing some somebody grieving, I think that will be so enlightening, illuminating for me personally, being selfish here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Let's well, let's see if we can try to walk through that. I mean, I like couple, let's come back to the connection part. So I think about grief as being about loss, love, connection, right? And so grief is not a feeling. A lot of people think I am feeling grief, right? I think of it as going through and processing what we've lost. It's how we make sense of what's happened after the event, whatever the event is, right? And and so as long as you love, you will grieve. And that's kind of like where I land on that. And so, in a way, grief is kind of all around us because love is all around us, I hope, right? Um, and so I think, you know, coming back to this idea of connection, it is so important. No one is meant to grieve alone. And I don't even think we can do it alone. This idea that, oh, I'm just gonna kind of go and take a couple of weeks to deal with my grief and then I will come back doesn't actually just go away because we do some really great work. My hope is that when I work with people who are grieving, that it's not that the grief is fixed. We don't fix it. My hope is that you grieve with less pain, right? As long as you love, you'll grieve. So, and then I guess this piece about connection is so important. You and I had talked when we talked at the start of the summer. I remember I I was telling you a little bit about this, this theory, ring theory, about how we support one another when we're going through a rough time. So if you kind of imagine the a target symbol, like a target symbol. So in the center of the target is the person who is in crisis, right? In crisis, they're in acute grief, right? And then the circle around them is their closest people. And those are the people that they lean on. Now, the people in that circle also need people to lean on to. So it's kind of, you know, this idea that you kind of you can you put your comfort in, but then you're going to other people on the outer one. And everybody needs an outer one. Even me as therapists, I have the outer layer, right? I have my own therapist. But that's kind of, you know, so let's say you are caring for somebody who is going, who is totally in it and they are having such a hard time, and sometimes we don't know what to do. I always say reaching out is better than not reaching out, stumbling over words is better than silence, because again, we're not supposed to do it alone. And and our society doesn't really give us a guidebook for saying here as how we can talk about it. In fact, our society kind of is, let's just not talk about it and then it'll go away. Or like a few days after the funeral, people just suddenly stop checking in, like maybe a week later or a few months later. So I always say, keep doing it. Maybe you don't ask, how are you? How is today is today a better day? Right? You can you can, but you can also say thinking of you, right? Yeah, stopping by with some. I have a great book. I think it's called Forget Prayers Bring Cake. Oh my god, that is.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

I need her, oh that is that sounds amazing. Forget prayers bring cake.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Oh, you know, like a lot of people and it's beautiful, right? Like prayers are beautiful. And so like texting someone like my thoughts and prayers are with you is beautiful. And so is like doing this, like I think courageous act of really showing up for someone when they are really suffering and being like, This is just the worst thing. I brought cake. Let's eat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

You know, yeah. Yeah. I I think a lot, you know, we were talking about earlier about these little moments and things. It's like sometimes these losses, these grieving moments feels like it's a right, it is a rite of passage. And it is not the time for us to go isolate ourselves and hide in a cave and you know, shut the door and you know, put on our do not disturb sign. But how beautiful will it be if we we if we all just all leaned in and use that to just connect with each other, like in the breathing moments.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah. I'm so with you on that. And I I think that's why I find a lot of comfort in some of my my faith's traditions and some of some other faiths' traditions. There's many faiths really offer space well, what do we do? We we sit. We sit and we talk, right? Or or don't talk, but we are in it. We feel our feelings for this period of time afterwards. And I think you asked me something a little bit similar before about like how do you step in? So you know, in in the Jewish, we only we have these seven first days after a death loss where we sit. And then there's these 30 days after where you also take it really slow, and the time the goal needs to be tiptoeing back into the world and practicing again, how do I hold both a tragic loss, you know, losing somebody you love, and you know, can I go to the grocery store? It's a lot of grace, so much grace.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

I just wish we all gave so much more grace. Yeah, yeah. It is, I think grace is like it's it's it's one of those things. And I I don't this is kind of sometimes I wonder why are so little grace given, you know, and this is like grieving, grief, death. I mean, even that postpartum. Yes, yes. I the other day I was I was talking to an a friend about postpartum depression, and I was, and it's kind of like all of a sudden I feel like the universe is dropping in. My what is postpartum depression? I feel like a lot of times those kind of things come at you because you're expected to do things alone. Like, yes, you had a baby, you have one week, you have a month. Yes, now you gotta and we were never meant to function that way. And you know, now this grace piece, are we not able to give grace because we're unable to be in the discomfort? And therefore we just kind of like want to brush it under the rug. And okay, we're done with that, let's move on. What is your thought on that? Is it because we can't we don't like to be in the discomfort and that's why we want to run away from it? We just want to move on.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I mean, I think we just we're so overstimulated with a lot of discomfort. I think I think that's kind of what just came to my mind when you said that we already live in a world where we're like always seeing the news and in a 24-hour news cycle of very difficult things. And I think, you know, even that people don't really understand. We're we're only just beginning to understand how much that impacts the brain and your nervous system when you're like seeing terrible things happen, you know, and it might be so fast, right? You might be just like swiping up and you see this person was murdered or this terrible war is going on, right? Yeah, and those things are like kind of in you, and then you know, work and economy and kids and all the things, and it's this is uh this I need to move away from this need one less thing to be uncomfortable about, but I'm kind of like instead of trying to get around the thing, like try going through in a way of saying, like, you know, I guess an example could be like even the act of crying, like it helps us come out on the other end, it helps us process and feel. And like, you know, those feelings aren't final, but we also can't heal what we don't feel. Like, so I think that's really hard. Like this question of going through in a way. I guess an example could be like even the act of helps us come out on the other end. It helps us process and feel. Those feelings aren't final, but we also can't heal what we don't feel. I think that's really hard to the question we just stay away from it and try to avoid, avoid, avoid. I don't think we really have control over that the way people want to try to avoid. But again, like when you lose someone or something that you love, right? We have to talk about I've had so many clients come in and be like, I don't want to say that I just had a baby and I missed my life before. I'm like, let's say it, I am my name is Mindy, right? I have two kids is hard and I miss being able to sleep in on Saturday mornings. Like I go to brunch at two o'clock in the afternoon, which I can't remember the last time I've done that. But you know, we ha I think it's okay to be able to say that. Yeah. We need to take some of the stigma away that you know I when I hear a birthing person say it. You know, I feel like such a bad person. I must be a bad parent. And I'm just like all there with you. That's why we need that's why we need that connection more.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Yeah. I think from now on we're just gonna say, Yes, I'm that person, and I missed like, you know, taking a nap at 3 PM and not eating ice cream for dinner and not feeling guilty about it or what have you.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

And how else can you figure it out, right? Forward and like make make amends of those changes if you don't say what they are.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Yeah, yeah. And like it's yeah, I mean, there's so much of it's it's the ending of one thing, it's a beginning of the other. And yeah, we can't have our cake and eat it too a lot of the times, but right, you know, we want to, and there's nothing wrong with that. Yes, totally. You know that moment your kid is melting down, or gone quiet, and you have no idea what to say. This is Rita, host of Once Upon the Feeling, and co-founder of Gucci. My co-founder and I make Gucci because we've stood in that moment ourselves. Gushi is an app built around storytelling. Because kids don't process big feelings through lectures. They process them through stories of others experiencing similar things, whether it be loss, fear, or just straight-up pain. The stuff that is really, really hard. Gushi gives you the words for them, and honestly, sometimes for you too. We built it as parents, living this in real time, and how to vet it by child development experts. So it's not just sweet, it is sound. You can download the Gucci app on the Apple App Store, and now when those hard moments come, you will have the right words right at your fingertips. Yeah, I guess, you know, this is kind of like one of those things and that I always wanted to bring up in the conversation with our guests is that I I from after doing this work for a while and being a parent, I realized, oh, like the kids are such a mirror for me. And sometimes the discomfort or like they're like they're triggering me in a way because I haven't been able to do that myself. Yeah. I don't know. So it's like, you know, when I'm watching them going through something hard and crying about something, I know like for for the longest time I'm like, just stop. It's not a big deal, like move on, and and and all the things. And that's when I realized, like, oh, because I don't want to, like, I don't know how to sit in it, and I don't know how to deal with that pain and things. So like it's wildly, wildly discomfort uh uncomfortable. That is so interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yeah. Kids are it's it is interesting when you see the mirror on you a little bit. I so this past week, I we had a third loss of someone close to us, and it was really in this third loss this summer. And um, and I said to him, I was going to fly down to my my family's my family in South Florida was gonna fly down for the funeral. And I said to my six and a half year old, I think I might, I might go home to be with your aunt. And her dad, her dad passed away, and she's really sad. He said, said, Mom, another one? And I said, I know, I know. I'm like, I am so sad too. This isn't how things typically happen with this much. I'm like, it's it's horrible, isn't it? And I'm like, it's pretty sad, you know? And he's like, you know, do you have to go? And I I ended up not being able. We were, you know, I ended up not, and we watched it on Zoom. We watched the funeral, and so we watched the whole thing. And he was also, he was my husband and I had our AirPods in, listening while we were on a road trip. And my kidno was like, you know, you're still watching who's talking now, and da-da-da-da. And I'm like, I know, I'm like, it's really I said, you know, your your aunt is so sad, right? I'm like, this is so hard for her, and you know, it's a hard day, and so that's we want to be there to be with her for that because it's really sad. And no, I think it's really interesting watching them because kids are so different in grief. You know, they kind of I think one of the terms that I love is that they're puddle jumpers in grief because they can just you can't have this horrible storm, yet they are like just running around and you know, they can be sad and then they can go play. Yeah, they can be in horrible pain, they can go to a friend's birthday party, and like which is very, very uncomfortable for grownups.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

They're like, what the heck is going on? And it's normal, it's so normal.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

They don't process their grief the same way adults do because also their brains just aren't developed at all, anywhere close to the way an adult person's is. So because they don't have space for that kind of pain, they're gonna deal differently.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Question Yeah, brain development, all that aside, do we not do that because we feel guilty as adults? Wait, can you do that? Meaning, meaning we don't puddle jump because we don't think we're allowed. Do we not puddle jump because we're supposed to be sad? It's expected for us to be sad. If we're not sad, then we haven't loved enough. It's almost like not honoring the one that you know the grief. Is that I mean, is oh I just I love that.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

So this is whenever I hear the the should of it all, like we should, we're we're not supposed to be doing that. I'm like, well, is is that right? I think this is the place where our kids, our kids can be good examples because you our kids can be very resilient and still need support, right? It can't, they can't, and so it's totally normal whatever is going on for them and how they're processing it. And and I think you're so right that I've I've had so many clients say to me in acute grief, it's I shouldn't, I shouldn't be happy right now, right? I shouldn't go out, it wouldn't be it wouldn't be okay. Or like when they consider starting to maybe date again, if they've lost a partner, you know, this feels really wrong, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:08

There's a lot of should there. There's a lot of should. I should do this, I should feel this way, I shouldn't. None of it is just being. It's all about what's yeah, there's so much judgment there. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

There's so much, there's so much judgment there. And I think a lot of time without making a real conscious decision, we're choosing to be like in a almost like up on trial or something, someone else is watching, watching our grief. And so if we can make peace with the fact that it is about coming back to that beginning thing, love, lost connection, then for your doing grief. I always this is also a ca a David Kessler quote. But I think you would always say, if a client asks me, say you're doing grief perfectly, however, you're doing it is perfect. Because you get, you know, when people say the thing about it comes in waves, I'm a I grew up on the beach. You waves are not all the same, and waves are not all little and small and fun to go in, and some smack you in the face, right? Some are dangerous. Like so they're you know, we do the best we can. And so if you come from a place where you're watching somebody in grief and maybe maybe they are going out and you're like, How are they doing this? They're doing the best they can to hold both, you know, it's so and that's so hard too. Doesn't mean they're not going into a bathroom and crying by themselves for a moment, right? Or doing whatever they need to do, or or just actually having fun for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

I can wonder like so many of the things that we do, we grieve or not grieve, or whatever, like is informed by the conditioning and the social norms and and things like that, and that somehow disconnect us from each other, from ourselves, from the one that we have lost, from the thing that we have lost. And, you know, it one of the things I realized too is that we're as humans, as adults, as a society today, are we're so good at compartmentalizing, right? Grief is in its own bucket, this something else is in this bucket, and we're treating it as if they're not, they shouldn't touch each other, right? It's a box here, it's a box there, it's a box there. And I will deal with this box. I can only do one box at a time, I guess. It's kind of like how a lot of us see these. I mean, it's but like I was, you know, in the beginning, I was like, How are you? Like life is lifing, right? It's it's so fluid. It's it's like a river, like whatever comes, comes. It just all kind of like jumbled mumbled up in one big thing. And I think there is this, I there is this desire to to allow everything to come together, to allow things to intertwine, to be messy, and not being able to sometimes it's grief mixed with many other things. It's not just grief, right? And so it is so interesting. And now, like I'm wondering, let's say you know, my kid is 12. I think we still have time where I'm not like too late on on that. Is that as their parent, I feel like I'm coaching them as to how do we live life, how do we view life going forward as a human being from your standpoint? If you were to coach someone, a parent, a teacher, maybe another fellow counselor, what are some of the things that we can do or some of the lenses that we can put on exercises to counter this old notion of compartments and really embracing this fluidity in life?

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So I told you earlier that I was reading some of the Gucci stories with my kiddo, and one of them was the story about the friend moving away. And when you're when a friend moves and there was this question, I can't remember if it was the parent that asked, but there was a question that I wrote down that they asked the child, what do you think would help your heart? And that's where I start with a lot of people is giving yourself permission to ask yourself, what do I need in this moment? What would feel good in this moment? What do you think would help my heart? What do I think would help my heart today? I wish people would do that because we don't often do that, right? If, you know, I'm watching someone in acute grief right now and everything's so hard. And also they're taking care of a lot of people while they're dealing with a massive loss. And I, you know, I wish that they could wait, they could just say, what would help my heart today? Would it be to say, I don't want to go do this thing. I would like to go on a walk with this person, or, you know, but to really to be honest and to really take the time. I think a lot of us don't take the time to ask ourselves what would feel good, what would heal my heart. And I think the other part is you, everybody, grief needs to be witnessed. It doesn't need to be witnessed by people you know. I think people feel like it has to be with family and friends. And sometimes they're like, well, my family and friends won't get it. They don't want to talk about it, da-da-da-da. This is a great reason why you. Community is whatever you make it to be. I think people don't often expect to go to a support group or, you know, I offer these book club groups for grief and to meet complete strangers and to feel like they are understood and heard. Don't it can be done. That healing work can be done with strangers too. It doesn't have to be with only the people that have always been in your bubble.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Oh wow. I think that is so interesting. And I wonder sometimes if it is easier to be vulnerable in front of people that you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

It absolutely can be. I see it all the time. And even if you walk in with some skepticism, you know, you just and that's I think what most people are looking for is to connect with someone that will can hold that with them.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

You talk a little bit about this grief need to be witness piece.

unknown 34:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:10

Tell us more. Like, you know, just even from like a like whether it's a clinical standpoint or what like what makes the witnessing so important? What happens when someone's grief is witnessed?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

So powerful. I mean, I think I I talk a lot in my work. Um so I I've also been trained in mind body medicine from the Center for Mind Body Medicine in Washington. And I, in my work with them, you know, we talk a lot about being the importance of being a compassionate witness. You know, my job is to sit with you and to listen with my whole body, my mind, my spirit, right? No matter what other distractions can happen, I'm here with you to listen, right? My job isn't to fix, to talk. I'm just gonna be here. And I think that, you know, when you think about grief needing to be witnessed, I think about, you know, we hold often we hold so much in, right? Because, oh, we should be getting better. You know, somebody will say to me, it's been six months, why am I not better? Like, first of all, acute grief is at least the first two years. Just the beginning of acute grief is at least the first two years. And so, you know, slowly, slowly, like when we can talk about how we're feeling, we take away some of the power of those feelings that are so big. I mean, I know you know that because I I've read so much of what you've put out on Gucci, and I'm like, right, oh my gosh, like why aren't we talking more about, you know, somebody gets sick in the family and being able to say, this, this is really sad to see somebody sick, you know? But no, I I mean, I think when I when I think about the witnessing part, so much of what I've seen too is not only within the family work, but but that idea of going to places where you can connect with somebody else, like a loss of a sibling group. You know, sibling, when you lose a sibling, that's often a forgotten category.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

And creating space to not be alone in that when so many siblings end up becoming, you know, basically a grieving counselor to the parent. Really, we really want to avoid that.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

It's not a kid's job, no matter what their age is. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I'm like thinking about like all those people. I'm like, I need to reach back out. Yeah, do it. Yeah, I gotta go. I was like, gotta call this person, gotta write that person, and check in on how they have been, and and and and and all the things. I think there's you know, it was interest it's interesting that today, like, you know, we're talking so much about grief, and obviously grief, a lot of the times we think about the end of life and all the things, but essentially, I feel like grief is just a way of the world and this life telling us things are finite. You know. Yeah. As much as we want to pretend that it will go on forever. Um, my husband and I, we have been kind of in the same mind space, very similar mind space in the past six months. It kind of just all came in. I don't know how and why he listened to a podcast, and the work of a death doula really, really intrigued him. And so he basically I just happened to get this book that so I don't know if you know the book Briefly Perfectly Human by Alua Arthur. Alua is uh death doula. She's actually I believe she's Nigerian. Sorry, Alua, if uh I am getting this wrong. Briefly Perfectly Human. It's actually one of the the the on the bestseller list. She is based out at LA. She's Nigerian, I think, by heritage. And he basically, I want he he heard a podcast where the host interviewed her, and he's just, I want this. And this is kind of the thing, and I kind of this is segueing into your work with legacy because my husband has a PhD in engineering. He is not in the, you know, on the what is it, the right brain sphere type of a guy, right? And he framed it so he framed it so well from an engineering standpoint, and I feel like everybody can relate to engineering technology, and now a lot of the times you work on optimizing. You're always optimizing something, right? You're making things faster, you're making things brighter. He worked in the audio world, you're making things smaller, sounds better and louder, what have you, bigger range, all the things. You're always optimizing something. And in the math equation, if you're optimizing a variable, you have to have an end. That you have to have an answer. It cannot the answer cannot be infinity. You have to consider the end of life. You cannot think that you're just gonna live forever and ever and ever. Uh so I kind of want you to talk a little bit about legacy work. How do you bring that up? How does that come out? What does that look like in your world? Because that's essentially what we have to consider, right? Like you mean usually that is when you're basically staring your mortality in the face. Yes. Like, yes, one day I will die. I mean, we all will. Um, some people are trying really hard not to, but you know, we will see how that goes. Yeah. Like, how does doing that work actually allow us to live fuller? Oh my gosh. Being more present. Like all the things. I want to hear all about it. Like your legacy work and how you got into it and all the fun stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:39

I I live, I lived for doing that work the same. I think that's why it's all become so connected is the grief work, the advanced care planning work for healthcare and thinking about like how do you want your death to look, to ask yourself that. And then the legacy work, which is about, you know, how do you want your voice to live on after you die? Right. And how did I get into that? Well, in another life, I was a lawyer and I worked for my dad doing my third year of law school. I spent that whole year getting to work with my dad doing estate planning. And he is, I grew up with him talking about ethical wills, which is another name for legacy letters. They're non, non-tangible assets, right? So think about the things that matter to you most. What are the lessons you want to pass on to people, right? What have you learned in this life that you want to share? And traditionally, this goes back very far. It's it's not it's not a religious practice at all, but we can trace it back in in Jewish times in the Middle Ages. It goes back very, very far, right? People didn't tend to live very long. So let's say the head of the house was going on a work trip, right? And they're leaving. There's a pretty good chance they're not coming home. So they would maybe leave a letter to their family saying, here's everything that's important. And in case we haven't taught you this yet, I want you to know, right? And so, and it also became something that also the head of the community, so maybe a rabbi at the time, would maybe even write it to their entire community. I became really fascinated when I decided to switch careers and become a clinical social worker. I started doing some research in my MSW program on the origins of ethical wills and how can we use them today, right? And at the time, which I actually still work with them, the Smith Center for Healing and the Arts in Washington, DC, which is really important to my heart. I put, I started studying this idea of could I help people to do this now, no matter where they are, range a wide range of mortality. You know, most people that are involved with Smith Center have been impacted by cancer in some way. And so I had seen someone in one of my support groups S away, and they had been a very active person in the support group. And they died and they left a letter for someone in the group. And then someone came to group and they shared a paragraph from the letter. And I thought to myself, this is an ethical will, right? It wasn't called bad, but that's exactly what it was. This person was sharing. Like, why did I make the choices I made? How did I choose my ending, right? You know, a specific example is about, you know, choosing to continue doing treatment. That's very painful, right? Really difficult choice. But sharing some of those things about what mattered to them, how much the group mattered to them, right? Community. And so sharing this letter meant so much to these people. And something that they carried with them, right? It meant so much to me. I mean, I ended up creating an entire curriculum around it. So I spent like the next six months after that being into this idea of ethical wills, legacy letters don't need to be just about this traditional idea of next of kin, but why not for friends and family and you know, your mahjong group, I don't know, whatever it is that that lights you up to share with those people when you die. Or some people now give them before their death, but to share what matters. And it's just, I think that the cool thing about it is it's not just a gift to the recipient, it's also a gift to you, to the writer. It's this moment in time where you're like, let me do a little bit of a look at my life and how I live it and what I say matters most to me. And am I living that way? If I'm not, maybe it's time to make some tweaks, right? If I say that family is the most important, but like I'm never around, you know, maybe I want to change some things, right? Right. Or if I say, like, I love reading, but like I haven't picked up a book in two years, right? Maybe that's also because tiny kids, but you know, like maybe, maybe we want another book in our lives. And I think it can be very exciting, the legacy work about how do I want to live the rest of this life that I get to have, knowing that like we have no idea if it's gonna end today or you know, in decades, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Oh my god, I'm so excited about this. I think I'm gonna start like making a thing. Like we'll share what what our legacy Letters, like the letters of what's important to us, like every birthday.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

I have a little cheat sheet about it. Yeah. That I can share.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

I may I I mean what a beautiful thing it would be do but it would be to do it with the kids. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Yeah. I have, I and I've seen that before, right? You can do different versions of them where, you know, maybe you leave letters that the kids open on different on their birthdays if you're not, if you think you're not going to be there for a certain birthday or for a special occasion, like a graduation or a wedding, right? How incredible. I mean, I think we often underestimate like how much that means to somebody to receive a note after you lose somebody you love. I kind of think of it if you've ever had the experience of losing someone you love, but then seeing maybe a handwritten note, even just their signature, like can be like magic. You get to just hear somebody again for a moment and and keep it, right? It's yours. But I think of it as a really unique gift to the recipient and the writer, and just something, you know, that can really help us be a guiding light. You know, if you know what your if you know what you want your legacy to be, then you're basically saying to me too that I know how I want to live. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

This is bringing up, we were just in Europe for a month. My uh my in-laws are there, and I actually just wrote a substack about this because I was like, give me all the feels and the downloads. We I took my girls to Milan. They have never been. They were, you know, I my husband and I we went a couple of years ago. Well, we gotta see all this, you know, the Last Supper and the Duomo, the Cathedral, and all the different things. And so, like, my oldest was turning 12, so I'm like, let's go. And she was really excited. She's like, I wanna go see The Last Supper on my birthday. I'm like, you're one weird 12-year-old, but yes, we can do that, you know. So we did. But Last Supper aside, we were in, we went to see the cathedral, and then so I guess the conversation was like, Well, when was this cathedral built? And I never I didn't think to of to to look it up last time. And I went and I looked it up, and apparently the Milan Cathedral was built in 13. It started in 13, it didn't finish until 196. It took it took five almost a hundred years. And it got me thinking, like, the person, like that's kind of what a legacy is, right? And you were like my I was saying like Lynn Maneral Miranda said it, right? A legacy is you you you build something that you're probably not gonna be around to enjoy. So when you lay down that brick, like that first stone, that Mason that laid down that first stone, knowing probably he ain't gonna be alive when this thing is done. And it took 600 years. So how do you I feel like this is one of those like mind-blowing things, I still can't wrap my head around it. Is that how do you convey what is important to you, your vision, your legacy, if you will, so all of those who come after you can have some sort of a guidance as to how what this thing shouldn't look like. And at the same time, all of those people that come after you have enough freedom to adapt it to whatever it is right for their time. And then here we are in 2026, walking around this magnificent, ginormous, crazy like building with like all of the artifacts and the just the craftsman, just all of the things that went in there marveling at it and knowing that you know, somehow someone over 600 years ago probably closer to 700 now had a vision to lay down that first stone. It's yeah. And that's another thing is like nowadays uh I've I was having all the feels of like nowadays we are so focused on what's gonna happen now. Yeah, yeah, right. Whatever I am building now, like I want to be able to, you know, especially in my world, tank founder or whatnot, like I need to exit in it in 10 years. I need to, you know, all the things we're taught we're so focused on speed and things that that means, you know, we have to be able to see the results. It's about how quickly we can scale, how quickly we can change something. It's about how fast things are. Yeah. But we we don't think about we don't think about what's gonna happen four or five hundred years down the road. Such a power and like pausing the way that you know yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Yeah, I and that's one of the reasons why I say you don't need to be sick andor dying to do this work. Do the work when you feel great. When you you know, do the work at any time. I mean, I really I invite people at all ranges and stages of mortality and health to be a part of the legacy writing process because it is so exciting, right? I, you know, the other work that I love engaging in is being centered psychotherapy, which is really, you know, at the heart of Victor Frankel's work, who is a Holocaust survivor, so he was in the camps. And and he, you know, you can't make meaning out of the death itself. That's not our task, right? But what we can do is draw meaning out of what did we learn from this person or this thing or this pet that we love so much, right? No, how do we, how do we make it through difficult things? There's just so much power in taking the time to do that. And it's it's not easy, right? I I do it with the reason why I do it as a four-week program is because I'm like, take your time, right? The first time you sit down to write, you might be like, I'm not doing this, because that's how I was. I tried to write one to my first child after he was born. I was like, I'm gonna do an ethical will to my kid, and I couldn't do it. And I'm the ethical will writer. I was like, I can't do this. And and then I ended up just completely flipping the script. I around the same time, my stepdad, who I'm so close with and I love so much, was had had a heart issue, and I was really scared that he could die. And I ended up writing an ethical will to him, and I gave it to him. And it was the first one I ever wrote, and I did it because I felt like I wanted him to know how many things. I don't talk about this. Here we go. But I wanted him to know how many things that guide my life today that he that are because of how he helped to raise me and because of his love, right? I I wanted to use the opportunity as a space to say, you know, I care about these things, and this is what I'm gonna tell my kid. Somehow it was easier for me to say it to him, but I was like, and this is what I'm going to want to pass down because of, you know, you, right? Like, yeah, no, it's it is hard to do that work, I think. And it's also priceless. I I hope that most, and that's usually what I see from people giving me feedback afterwards is I never thought I'd be able to do this or get through it or put pen to paper on these things because it's so hard to think that they might be opening it when I'm gone. Wow, you know, what a gift they're gonna get. Somebody just said to me recently who lost a parent, I wish I had something like that. Like, why didn't they take the time? And so many people don't because they just don't think they're gonna die. They don't think they're gonna die anytime soon. You know?

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

There's all there's always more time.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Yeah. No, I feel like, you know, even more so, do it while you're well. Like, you know, like it's yeah. No, that's like that's really the definition for me personally, is like, how do I live to the fullest? Not when, you know, I want to live now, not when I'm like about to die. Right. Like, I'm alive and happy and all the things. Like, let me do that now. Like, I don't need to have somebody say, Yep, the finish line is, you know, six months from now, then I go and live fully. And I feel like if we're gonna teach our children that, we're good. Oh my gosh, yeah. Like, right? Like live real life to the fullest. And again, obviously this is like opening up a whole can of worms, right? You know, you're talking about school and all the things and the fear of not being okay, the fear of I don't know, not making it. There's definitely a lot of that. But maybe if we'll kind of refocus a little bit, we're all gonna, we're gonna live a little better, a little happier. Our kids will be a little better, a little happier, and then we won't be chasing this thing that is out there. Well, I love that. Yeah, you know, I'm never I mean it's always you're we're always chasing. Like nowadays it feels like we're always chasing something. It's the next day, it's the next thing, it's the next stage, you know, it's it's the next degree, the next job, the next title. And then we we miss completely what is here.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, and it's so easy to tell your kids, oh, be in the moment, right? And we can't ask our kids to do something that we we don't. Like we really really need to work on that one, right? You know, I think about that all the time because I keep thinking if my phone is near me and I'm I want to say to my kids, no phone at the table, but if my phone's at the table, right, then what? And I think I think there's really something to that too, about what you're saying about the, oh, if somebody says to you, you only have this amount of time to live, what do you want to do with your life? And those answers come quick to you. Oh, I want to travel, I want to do this. I mean, what you're saying now is, you know, that sometimes give you is the answer. You are your you are the best expert on you. Uh and that, you know, that's how you that if that gives you something, that maybe then that becomes part of the guide. It tells you about living, right? If you're what you want for legacy or for last minute is tells you.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Yeah, I think I I started kind of like dropping into that once I started doing death meditations, which is very interesting. You basically just meditate and think like, you know, and you kind of like let your mind go through just like, okay, somebody's telling you you have got one year left. And then what do you want to do? Six months left. What is that, you know? And then somehow going through that exercise, I like to do it first thing in the morning when I wake up, which is kind of weird. But then you kind of drop in as like, okay, you have two weeks left. Like, what do you want to do? You know, somebody telling you, Yo, one day, what do you want to do today? And allow whatever comes up to inform you what you should be doing, because that is what's important. Because that is what's important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

What an awesome practice. I that's fascinating. And yeah, it does. I mean, that comes full circle to me about the question about what does it mean to that your grief needs to be witnessed. The true expertise in grief does not lie with the grief, the grief counselor. It's it's with the griever. And so, like, the more that the griever can, I think, actually say and express, what are you feeling? What are you thinking? What how is this how is this impacting you? Right? The more then you know what what to do. And yeah, like you have that expertise in you because it's it's unique to each person, this experience.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

I guess much like life. Yeah, I know. Oh my god, this is so good. I I'm not, I'm gonna start like a letter legacy letter, ethical will, ethical letter type of a writing, writing, writing group here. I think, yeah, we're gonna talk once we're off the camera and off the mic. I think this is gonna be such a beautiful practice for just everybody involved. I wanted to do this season because this season I want to focus on connection. And I feel like we just talked so much about that. If there is a couple of things that you will recommend to people out there, whoever they are, on having more connection, fostering more connections, either to themselves, to their friends, two exercises or two questions, frameworks, like what would you pick? What what what would it be? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Okay, let's let's do let's see what we can do on the spot. This is so interesting. So I think, I mean, one I think is, you know, coming back, I know I've said this probably a couple of times, like we are not meant to do this thing called life alone. We're not meant to grieve alone, and we're not meant to do life alone. And so don't, you know, if somebody says I want to be there for you, I kind of am like, believe them.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:17

You know, let them, right? And and I think that other part is that question to yourself, what would feel good in my heart? Because that's that's usually, you know, people usually say to a griever, oh, just tell me what you need and I'll do it. And they're like, I don't know what I need. I need, you know, I need my dad to be back. I need to sleep, okay? You know, and I'm like, okay, so that's the part where you can be a compassionate witness. You can't fix that, but you can sit with somebody in that. So, you know, I think that one is like connect. It doesn't have to be with family and friends, it can be with strangers, but connect, find your people and help and ask for help finding people, right? I'm always if somebody reaches out to me for grief work and I can't do it, I'm like, I am here, I will help give you resources. We will connect you anywhere you want to be to help find you your people. And then I think, you know, you know, that question that we don't ask. What do I need today? What do you what would feel good for me today? It is okay to ask that. And just, you know, to do that with love and with just so much compassion and grace. If you're having trouble finding that compassion for yourself, one of the most well-researched tools we have is to just ask yourself, what would I say to a friend? What would I say to a friend in this situation? And, you know, see if that gives you some hope. You know, oh, I would tell them they should, they, they should rest or let ask for ask for a mule train, right? You have so there's so many good tools out there. There's lots of good books, there's lots of good resources, and there's so many awesome communities just waiting to support people. And and so I just hope that we keep using them and we keep taking away this stigma that has been created in the past really century of it's an icky thing to talk about. Because you know what? It's it's life. It's life. We're going to lose people and we're gonna lose things and we're gonna lose, no, and sometimes parts of ourselves. And so our job is to figure out like, how do we how do we continue healing even when we can't take the bad thing away?

SPEAKER_00 58:18

Yeah, this is so beautiful. Now, maybe I think we can stay here for like another hour and a half. Before we go, can you tell people where to find you and uh you know how they work with you? You I know you have a fun, fun, maybe it's not the right word, an amazing book club coming up.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

You can find me, you can find me at mindybrodsky.com. I have a lot of different ways that we can work together. So I do individual work, I do group work workshops. The newest thing coming up is on October 19th. I have a six-week series. It'll be my third time running this group. It's I I just love the book. It's okay, it's okay to not be okay by Megan Devine. And so for people who are dealing with death losses, this is a six-week grief book club support group. You can be anywhere in the world to participate. It's education, it's tools, it's getting to be with other people who have also experienced a loss. They get you, you get each other and you can support each other. And if you want more information on that, there's tons more on my site. And yeah, also legacy letter work too, as well as advanced care planning. So just yeah, I guess the conversations that seem to be so difficult, I want to be able to help people and sit with them in those. So yeah, I hope to I'm just so grateful to you, Rita. And thank you.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Same. I mean, I loved just all of this, and you're giving me so many ideas as to what to bring into my community with my kids, my husband, my in-laws, my own parents, like all of it. So I can't wait. I think that, you know, this is not gonna be the last time. I'm so excited. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. Thanks, Rita. And thank you for all the listeners out there. We will drop all of Mindy's links in the descriptions. And thank you. I'll see you next time. And that wraps it up. Thank you again for listening to this week's Once Upon a Feeling. I hope you walked away with something new, something different, something that you didn't know you had. I truly enjoyed every moment of making this episode, and I cannot wait to share what we have in store with the next guest exploring the same topic, connection, because it means so many different things. I appreciate you. If you love this episode, love this podcast, and the thoughts and the information that it sparks in you, please give us a five star review and share with your friends and family. Take good care. I love you, and I will see you next time.