Meet Dr Sheena Glover

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for joining me this week on Ones Upon the Feeling. I have a very special guest. I'm so excited to get into this. Our guest this week is Dr. Sheena Glover. Dr. Sheena Glover is a clinical psychologist practicing out of Fort Worth, Texas. She is the founder and owner of Intimacy and Progress. That is her practice where she supports the needs of the LGBTQ community, working in various relationship structures, including Polly Amory and Consensual Nonarchmate. Hi, Dr. Sheena. Thank you so much for coming on. I am so excited about what we're going to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

I am excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Thank you for having me.

Conflict and Intimacy

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Relationships. It's kind of interesting

Conflict and Intimacy

SPEAKER_00 0:50

because uh Once Upon a Feeling has always been about parenting and you know what we do with the kids. Now, I grew up in Asia and as I do more of this work and as I look at my children and trying to guide them through their growth and just all the things, I realize that it has a lot to do with how I was brought up. Like how a lot of times I feel like I'm reparenting myself. Like I have to do that first before I can actually show up for my kids the way that I want it. The other day, I was doom scrolling in my Instagram, which I'm really trying really hard to cut down. And I saw this post and that really resonated. And it basically said, conflict is not the opposite of intimacy. It's not what causes the intimates to go away. On the contrary, is actually the opportunity for you to become more intimate with your partner. And it got me thinking because that is not how I experienced it when I was growing up. My parents fought a lot. They're still kind of not great on speaking terms, but I'm in my late 40s, so I can manage that. What I watched growing definitely did not build intimacy either between the two of them or within our family altogether. Let's start the conversation without conflict. And this is the very traditional monogamous relationship. It just involves two people, man and a woman. Can you talk a little bit about that? And I know when we were talking prepping for the episode, you mentioned some of the things that you experience growing up. How does conflict between parents affect children and family dynamics and things like that? And if they are parents who just can seem to get past that conflict and the fighting and things like that, like what are the some of the just quick things that they can do before they figure it out? If we ever figure it out.

Repair and Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_02 3:10

One of the things that marks a healthy relationship, because I specialize in couples' work, it is not the amount of conflict

Repair and Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_02 3:18

you have. That's not a red flag in and of itself. It is your ability to repair in a way that's meaningful, that you still stay connected and feel respectful to your partner. So if we're to model that in front of our children, what do they take on? Every human being has their own nervous system. And that child, however, their nervous system gets activated by seeing their parents have conflict. You also have to remember the degree of conflict. There is conflict, but no one's raising their voice when you cut the tension with a knife, and then there is plates being thrown, and all of that has the ability to activate a different response in the child. And the child internalizes that, and how they cope is based on what they seek out from early on from their parents. They go to mom or dad, get this toy, they try to use distraction, and when there isn't comfort, that's some of the lasting impact for them, meaning they could internalize that and embody the same behaviors as their parents' conflict, or they could be the complete opposite. It's always going to be a mystery for that child, whatever they're gonna go to reach for when they're in conflict. If I were to zero in on parents, the couples that I often see, whether they be a part of the LGBTQ or not, they're parents too. A lot of the conflicts, when it's had, it has a lot of emotions, and a lot of people don't say their emotions, they act out their emotions, which can get really toxic and heavy. A lot of the times I teach couples who are having conflicts what is actually going on in your body. Come back home. I reference the body as home, but come back home and see what's on fire. What room in your house, emotional room in your house, is on fire and needs your attention. Are you communicating to your partner? Are you communicating the emotion? Or are you doing everything that you can to inflict that emotion onto your partner? Because I see that often too. Conflict happens so fast, that's why I call it a fire, because you first see small. Exactly. And even that seething one where it's really quiet, it's not yelling, but you could feel the tension. Everybody go for cover, and no one is thrown a plate. Sometimes that's even scarier than the one that's out and about. So that's where my mind goes when I think of that question of what is the first thing that I teach couples when they're having a conflict? What's going on with you? Because to know you is to then be able to find a way onto that bridge with your partner. Without that, you're just throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping your partner says the right thing to disarm you, which has been powerless in those days.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

And I'm trying to think about how I grew up. It's been a few decades, and I have also seen other parents that became parents before I did. 40-some years ago, how I grew up is that the parents acted out when they were angry. There were conflicts. There is no physical fight, thank God. But they were shouting words that was said that probably wasn't the nicest thing to say in front of a child. Dad will then go and sleep in the office and not come home. I remember about 20 years ago. Some of my colleagues went the other way. I have seen parents where they vowed not to fight in front of their children ever. So everything happens after bedtime behind closed doors, which looking back probably isn't the best either. And then boom, parents are filing for divorce, and the kids like, wait, what happened? Um, so that is interesting. But what you're telling me right now, in terms of coming home, that's basically what we teach our children. This is when they're having an emotional breakdown. Okay, where do you feel it in your body? What is going on? Tell me. Oh, my chest is tight, my stomach's hurting, or whatever it is, and then that and then communicating that.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Um one thing that I was thinking of, like when you said that, about the ones that are really quiet and then or have conflict quietly at night, and then the next day, mom and dad is getting a divorce. I think that there's a beautiful art form to being able to disagree with someone and hold the line of I disagree with you, I don't maybe even like what you're saying, but I'm gonna hold the line because I love you and I care about you, and I want to hear you. That is the conflict, right? The moment you enter a space with someone and you disagree on some directions or opinions, you're in technically a state of conflict because it's the opposite of maybe the state or perspective that you're in. You're on a on a level that's being modeled, it's showing you that I can hold the differences of you without dominating, without dismissing, or making it about it's not labeled for the child, like, hey, this is what we're doing. But it's like, oh, I see mom and dad disagree and they respect each other enough to hold it. This is a really good opportunity for the child down the road. It's like when they practice conflict with parents, like I disagree with mom and dad. I know that I'm gonna, they're gonna hold a space for me to disagree without it being like, it's all about what I think you should be doing,

Why We Need to Be Right

SPEAKER_02 8:56

you know.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

I love that you throw in then there because now it comes to the question about the need for all of us, for some hot reason, we all want to be right. This this notion, like I need to be right, and you need to think like I do. What drives that? Like from your experience. I don't know whether there was a clinical way to describe it, this need to be, and this is on so many levels, right? Probably on couples, between the parent and the child. I mean, heck, like the political landscape nowadays is like, oh no, I'm right. But that's the thing, like so many things can be right just for different people. But why are we so driven, especially with those who are closest to us? Why do we need to convince other people that our way is the right way and the only way?

SPEAKER_02 9:45

I think both professionally and personally, this is a question that burns me. It burns me in my personal. I'm like, why is it that when my sister doesn't agree with me? I am just appalled. And we need to stop everything until this is right. You know, sometimes I've had to process that. And then even in you know, when I see in couples, so I was digging into that and I've discovered the word is misattuned. There is something I think, dare I say survivalistic in that word. Because when you're not attuned in your relationship, romantic relationship, when it's done chronically or experienced chronically, you probably feel the most alone. It's so isolating, it's so alone. When you don't see me,

Why We Need to Be Right

SPEAKER_02 10:35

I don't know what to do with that. I don't know what to do with the knowledge that you don't see me right now. That you're either is it because you don't want to or is it because you can't? But it's that loneliness. I think that we don't want to sit with the discomfort of not being seen and not being understood, and we are uh trying to control something outside of us. If I can say the right words, if I can get you to see it, then you can join me and I won't be so feeling X, Y, and Z. So I think that is a major component to it. And dare I say, couples, people with backgrounds maybe from trauma also, they're maybe more heightened to it. I'm not gonna say that they're overly sensitive because I don't think that there is, I think people are just emotionally, they feel more deeply. But I think that misattunment in a child, like I don't know if you've ever come across that video. It's called the still face experience where the baby is mom, yeah, baby is interacting, and the baby is doing everything that they can to get mom's attention, right? On a biological level, it's survival. I look to my parent to be able to that I can attune to and they attune back to me to tell me that this is safe. And I wonder how much of that gets carried into our adulthood, and we don't think about it, we don't name it that way. So when we are met with that uncertainty or someone say, I don't get you, uh you're wrong. Oh my goodness, how dare you!

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Yeah, it's visceral. What do you think? It's what is interesting is that there is one thing to nut attune to each other or agree with each other's thoughts or decisions or whatever, but we we equate that as the only way to bond. Is you know what I mean? The bond is not based on whether we agree on everything or not. Like we bond when we bond. Um, you know, you're my friend, I'm your friend. We probably have two very separate religions or whatever. We believe in different things, we eat different food. This is kind of the interesting thing where like we immediately think that, oh, because you don't agree with me, therefore you're not on my team, or oh, we are losing connection. Somehow it's a disconnection. I wonder if this explains why the world is the way it is right now.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Because it's threatening if you think about it, like you're not on my team, meaning that you felt safe, you and I were aligned, and then you not being on the same team with me brings up our fear response. It brings up this threat detection in romantic relationships or parenting relationships. If we're not on the same team, I can maybe excuse it the first time. We're the second time, but when it starts building up, then we feel like we're on the other side of the aisle. And then I don't know how to reach you, like you say, going back to that disconnect.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

I think the key to all of this is how do you disagree and still keep the connection? How do we reassure each other saying, like, I still see you, even though we don't believe in the same thing? How do we, if that threat and that, you know, if that armor all of a sudden comes out because we share some sort of differences in political view, and that happens everywhere, here, Asia, Middle East, wherever. Like, how do we, what are the things that we can do or we should do, the words that we say to say, hey, we don't have to believe in the same thing. I still think you're a wonderful person. It's so interesting because and and this also goes to some of the things that, you know, as a founder, you're a founder, is how we put everybody in a box. It's like, oh, you live in California, you're this and that, therefore you must believe X, Y, and Z. It's almost formulaic, right? But we all know we're human beings, we're complex. We come from different places, we have different upbringings, we read different books, um, listening to different podcasts as we were just discussing. They could be many different things. It could be paradoxical, it could be, it could be none of it have to make sense. So

Nontraditional Love Explained

SPEAKER_00 14:59

I think this is actually to talk about this non-traditional love. And I'm sure when I first introduce you as somebody who works in non-traditional relationships on the other side of those radios, people will be like, what are we getting ourselves into? Like, do I need to pull my kids away? There are just so many different ways of doing things. And so much of what we're willing to look at, to accept and really expanding our horizon and increase our capacity. Um, so much it actually has to do with like what our nervous system can handle. I don't know where I'm going with this, but I feel like once we can disarm people, it's like this is not a threat. This is just different people presenting different facets of themselves. Just because your friend is polyamorous or your teenager is exploring that particular type of relationship doesn't mean you have to be. There is no right or wrong, it's just different. And I would love for you to kind of talk about um how did you even get into working in this capacity? Because honestly, you're the first clinical psychologist that I have met working in this capacity. What is it like for you? Because I can only imagine that is a daily conversation in your practice. Like you don't see those words like you know, splattered in front of the front page of New York Times.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

So I got into the work because of a client of mine that I had for years in counseling. I had my own individual practice and to be able to support her was to get immersed in this world just so that I could support her in her journey. Then it opened the door for me to see some of the same ingredients that you see, the stigma and the prejudice that you see around the LGBTQ

Nontraditional Love Explained

SPEAKER_02 17:01

population. You also see it in the non-traditional, non-structured relationship or non-heteronormative relationships. And if it doesn't fit that mold, then it must be wrong. I'm a black and Korean psychologist, I'm a woman. I go towards the thing that is quote unquote uh bad for you because of narrow-mindedness. And it makes me roll my eyes whenever I see that. This area is so stigmatized, but when you go into the world of learning about these relationship structures, consensual non monogamy or polyamory, they do some of the most amazing work that most heteronormative couples would benefit so much from, because this relationship structure requires so much communication, so much self-awareness, self-reflection, understanding your boundaries, communicating your boundaries, being willing to work with a complete stranger and build relationships simply because you love your partner, facilitating the kind of structure that creates harmony. And then if there are kids involved, like how does this relationship structure support the child in the best way possible? Does all members need to be a part of this child's life? The parents get to decide that. So there's such a beautiful development of skills and truly constantly editing and implementing within this relationship that a lot of heteronormative couples they wait maybe until a crisis happens and come to couples therapy, and that's when they are you and I have spoken before, you know, kids are exposed to whatever their parents give them. And I think when they are exposed to a polyamory relationship, just like when a child is raised by same-sex parents, because they're exposed to it, they are just open to knowing that this type of sexuality is there or relationship structure is there. It's just knowledge, it is not an influential in the sense of like, oh, now my child was going to be polyamory. No, I think a lot of kids, even though the research is a lot, it's smaller, you know, um groups and it's still very fresh. A lot of the research is coming out that kids are able to see these types of relationship structures and know if this is what they want, what they don't want. So if they want to be in a monogamous relationship, they'll know it. Or they're more sure about it because they've had models. But they will have such a depth and emotional vocabulary and being able to talk about the difficult things that a lot of kids that aren't exposed to that level of emotionally mature conversations will be reluctant to have with their parents. In this family structure, it's model. So I answer the question of how I got there, but we can learn so much from this type of relationship structure because it is not a fix-it, it is not easy, it requires a lot of work to be in a polyamory relationship. I think that's the misleading thing that is out in society that is just, oh, a bunch of people just want to have sex with a variety of people and that's it. Nope, it's not. It means that I want depth and richness in the relationship that resonates with me. And can I find other like-minded people to build this beautiful relationship?

SPEAKER_00 20:36

That is so interesting. I heard this on a podcast, and there was a book about soulmates and what we think about soulmates. Basically, what it says is that the notion of a soulmate, where this particular one person has to do everything with you, is a lot. It's they have to like the same food, do the same thing, read the same type of books, listen to the same type of music and all the different things. That's a lot on one person. And the way that we have been conditioned, whether it's Hollywood or Jane Austen, I don't know, from as long as we know, is that there's this one person out there for you. But what if there isn't? What if you actually spread it out? Not necessarily in a relationship like a polyamory or whatnot, but even just as friendship, right? Where like, you know, I do this with that person, I do this with that person, and I will go eat with this other person. It is a lot easier to live life when you have a cohort. We have many soulmates on doing different things rather than just hanging all your hopes and dreams on one single soul.

Community Beyond Soulmates

SPEAKER_00 21:50

This is interesting because I see that also in children. My two girls are very different in the sense that one floats, she will do different things with different people. And the other one has like, I have my best friend. Now she's younger, so she's like, eh, I don't know. I'm kind of she's kind of getting on my nerve or whatever it is, I kind of want to float. But it is just so interesting how this adult relationship is also comp just reflected in how children approach friendship. And I don't know whether you have anything to add to that line when you are counseling a couple who clearly are not for the other person. How do you guide them through that process in the relationship, either branching out or stepping back? Because I think that is a beautiful way to model for your children that sometimes it's not one friend, sometimes it's many friends.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

I think what you remind me of like community building. So I see something that just well, as you were talking, I was thinking of I do have heterosexual couples, and I typically see that the woman is typically plugged into a community. She has a resource of emotional depth and closeness with a variety of people from family members to best friends. And then when I look under the hood of especially the man's experience, I often see that it is crickets. Maybe they have a friend at work that they speak to on a daily basis. But when you actually peel back the onion of what do you guys talk about? It lacks the emotional vulnerability or depth. It makes me think about how society wires us. Like women, because we are relegated to be the caretakers, there's pros and cons to that. It also means that we are afforded and allowed to have depth in our relationship. We can go there with a variety of people. And then, you know, men are not inherently afforded that privilege in our society. So when I think about that and I see that kind of structure, that background experience coming into the relationship, I often see that the woman in these heteronormative relationships being the most taxed because they are in some ways everything for their partner, because they carry all of the emotional kind of baggage of their partner, their husbands, their boyfriend. And because the boyfriend has just been conditioned to only give themselves to that. So I think of the modern version of your soulmate being when I see that being a component, but generally when I see a couple enmeshed,

Community Beyond Soulmates

SPEAKER_02 24:41

there's an expectation you have to be everything for me, or this is not gonna work. I immediately challenge that. I'm like, where is that going? What's happening there? Because that is putting a lot of pressure into the relationship that's unnecessary. I think it's kind of like if we're not doing it the way that we were taught in society, the media, the Disney movies, it must be wrong. I think that becomes a smoke for them, like, oh, this is sending alarm bells. No, your person cannot be everything for you, and vice versa. You're designed to have community, you're designed to fit with people that resonates with you. Because we are all parts. One of the things I incorporate in my couples' work is this thing called parts work, and there are parts of ourselves that we show up ruled by our emotional state, and we allow those parts to be seen by certain people, or sometimes we only show certain parts to people. I incorporate that into our my my work with couples. And when you have, you know, more softer side, maybe you want to show that to your partner and giggly side. Maybe you want your feistiness to be with your sister. And what it does is it gives us allowance to express these parts of ourselves in these relationships. And so, how do I get them started? Is who is the closest person you think is a good friend, someone you know, love, and trust that you can start sharing, spending time with, bringing them a part of your life. And you know, I mean, I can go on and on, but you know, the next step is vulnerability. If you're not used to it, you're gonna have to get used to being vulnerable, opening yourself up. But I purposely have couples reach out to someone that they feel is a safe person outside of their partners and start sharing small things with them, not about their relationship, but maybe other topics that they can get close on. And the goal is to expand little by little.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

That is so interesting because, like, you know, I think like the podcast now we're talking is really taking on this thing where whatever that we're willing to see in ourselves, we all have filters. We project, we do things based on whatever filters that we have on. And so if there is a certain part of you that you aren't willing to see, chances are you ain't got to let your child see that, right? You're not gonna teach them that, you're not gonna talk about it. So, like what you're saying just now is like all the parents out there, like all of us, like we have to be able to see each part, all the parts, us as a whole, without judgment, kind of like observing it. And I want to say sometimes allow your child to see those parts of you. Um so much of this parenting work is triggering because it's a mirror. Like my kids are showing me some of the things that I'm like, dang it, that's me. I can see myself and that I don't like it. And then it goes to the do as I say, and now what does I do? It's just the whole, whole can of warm. But yeah, I think that's the real work is having that mirrored back and looking at yourself and loving yourself anyways, knowing that you're a complex being. We have, I don't know how many, I remember The Atlas of Heart by Brenda Brown, just in terms of the emotion. It is wild, crazy. I don't even know how many of them were there. It was an atlas for sure. All of that is acceptable. That color wheel makes who you are. That's why you're you, and that's why each one of us are so different. We express everything differently.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

I like what you said about the mirror. I remember when I started as part of my graduate work, I wanted to do therapy because my supervisor once said, you can only take your clients as far as you've taken yourself. So I was like, okay, sign me up for therapy.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Man, was that a wake-up call. Well, I thought I was good. And then my therapist, Molly, I adore her, but she was like, Oh, are you sure? Got some things to work on. So one of the things that I I remember doing was like, you know, I wanted to work through a lot of the pains of my there was this knowledge that if I ever had children, I wanted to make sure I was ready. And I remember her, like, she indulged me. She did a great job. I love her so much. But she was like, you know, Sheena, there is gonna come a time where when you are a mom, that's when the work starts. It would be great because we intellectualize very easily. It's very easy, at least for me, to fall into intellectualizing, but I can intellectualize all these hypotheticals and what I'm gonna do and work on. But it really isn't until you're in front of that child. They are the most clearest mirror you've ever saw. Looking at, and I'm like, who is this person? And you're like, oh, I have to do some work. That's the crappy moment, but also a beautiful moment at the same time. You're like, oh, another thing that I have to work on. And I think that's also like I make sure that when I have couples, when I work with couples and they have kids, there are moments where that stuff comes up for them. And it's like, it's time to look at this, it's time to see how your kid is asking you of something different than what you're used to. And so I wish we could all do the work before the kids come, and we should. There needs to be some work done, but man, it's you always get nice little sneaky ones that come in. Have you had to do that?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Oh my god, I I am I'm 12, almost 12 years in, I'm still doing it. I think one of the things that you mentioned about is this, you know. Having a relationship, being in a relationship with another human being, and in some of the cases of your clients, multiple other human beings, is hard enough. Throw a kid or two in there makes things exponentially harder, right? So now you have got all these things coming at you. What does one do? Other than that, other than therapy. In addition to therapy, what is the how can we throw some breadcrumbs for people to like how do we get through this?

No Divorce Threats

SPEAKER_02 31:06

The first thing is do not threaten divorce, breakup. One of the the first thing I do is when I see a couple, I ask them, have there been any conversations about divorce, breakups? And some will say yes, and I'm saying okay, you need to make a commitment for six months to not even utter that word because it creates a hostage situation in the relationship. The other person feels pressure, they have to get everything right. So a commitment, no decision is made. We are just in it. So when I think about bringing a baby into this world and the chaos that is about to ensue, as well as the sleep information, try not to break up. The first year or two of having

Romance And Sex

SPEAKER_02 31:47

a new baby. But the thing that both people have to be intentional about, the two areas is romance and sex. Safe sex, meaning we're not trying to have sex a week after the baby's born. A lot changes for the body, for the mind, and romance, the desire to just love on your partner and want to spend quality time gets flooded with your child and responsibility and work. What keeps a parent, but also the relationship is the uh intimacy and sex is a part of it. You you can't let those two things go, the intimacy and sex. Because if you're not keeping a temperature gauge on that, the thing that brings this whole family together is slowly starting to erode and slowly starting to fracture. And it it was just the two of you first, and you have to be intentional of how do we make sure that we spend time together and nurturing the you know, me and you, not mom and dad, not career worker, but just the thing that made us us. So if you haven't had a date and you haven't had sex, we it's time to reassess. It's time to like take a look why, what's getting in the way.

Blame The System

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And the last thing is externalize the problem. I think couples inevitably there's a default parent. And I think it takes a lot of effort not to get into a default parent world. Okay, so for example, breastfeeding. Yeah, unfortunately, you are the lifeline. When the baby wakes up, even if the partner is here you go, you still have to take care of, you know, they can't breastfeed. So sometimes that process becomes the default, the way that your baby responds to being held, they want to be comforted, typically by the mother. Over time, the other parent becomes the supportive figure and not the vital default parent. When that happens, blame the system and not the other person. Meaning, how do we change the system? How can we fault the system for bringing us here instead of it's you, John, it's you, Tiffany, that brought me here, or why we're we're you know at odds. It's what are we doing together within the system? And the system isn't working for us. How do we change that instead of blaming? So I I gave three little immediate like take a look at those three things, and you'll you'll you'll definitely start finding a lot of things not working when you look at those three.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

And I'm just

Rebuilding The Village

SPEAKER_00 34:32

so great because, like, no, for all the people who are bystanders watching their friends getting married and have babies, sign up for those babysitting nights so your friends can go out on a date and reconnect and not worry about things. This is one of those things. And once upon a feeling, the village, the community, it's like we somehow went so nuclear in terms of like nuclear family structure that we lost so much of the other things that came with

No Divorce Threats

SPEAKER_00 35:04

having a village or in even a multi-generational home where the grandparents can watch the kids. So you have some time. Now, like, how do we rebuild that back instead of not everybody can afford a nanny? But if we all kind of get together and and watch each other's kids so the parent can have a couple hours alone, everybody's happier. So many things.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

It's definitely hard being new parents, the relationship gets really stressed. I mean, I got a new puppy four years ago, and I was sleep deprived for a week, and I had never regretted my decision in my life. I love her. I just think about what sleep decrease. And it's not fun. Imagine doing that for months to a year

Romance And Sex

SPEAKER_02 35:52

or more, and the person that you made this baby with is right next to you. Oh man, they're gonna get all your smoke, and vice versa. And sometimes it's important. I think there are opportunities in the parenting that doesn't need to fill it with mommy duties and things like that. If your baby is taking a nap, it's time for you and your partner to cuddle away, to love on each other, just to stay, you know, something so simple as when we greet each other in the mornings or in the evenings, kissing each other. Like, can I hold you for like five minutes? Just holding each other regulates the nervous system. You sometimes don't even need to speak because it just being able to cuddle up or kiss or a touch or holding hands, like that's something that I have a lot of couples do, especially when there's high conflict, is like we need to uh put book ins. I'm gonna greet you at the beginning of the day and greet you at the end of the night with a hug, with a touch, with five minutes. And yes, uh it is possible to find five minutes even in the chaos, even if you have to wake up five minutes early just to hold on to each other. I think it's those small moments that creates intimacy. Like I can just sigh and relax into your embrace, and that's enough

Blame The System

SPEAKER_02 37:20

to carry us through the very difficult and stressful

Supporting Poly Relationships

SPEAKER_02 37:24

moments.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Now we're talking about villages and how to support each other. I have a question on how do we support people who are on polyamorous relationships? Whatever the do's and the don'ts and things like that. Like I think in my universe, that is the situation. They're not really open about it. I know they are. I don't think they know that I know that they are. It's just for my own education. And, you know, this may go on to podcasts, may not go on to podcast, we'll figure out how to weave it in. But as someone who is just learning about things like this, how do I show up for them? And how do I show up for their children? And how do I teach my children talk about, you know, or just be in that environment? How do we show up as the best villager that we can be in support of their life decisions and this community, this beautiful community they have created? So let me answer your question.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Okay, so how do we show up for polyamicos? So I think the best way that we could ever show up for this type of relationship or any relationship is with the openness and curiosity. I there's you are going to be hardwired with preconceived notions because of what you consume in terms of media, what you heard in front of other people, or there might be just even an absence of knowledge about this world. And if you allow yourself to ask questions like you do a really beautiful job, Rita, of like just asking very open-ended questions throughout this whole episode. You've

Rebuilding The Village

SPEAKER_02 38:55

just been so wonderful with that. And truly, what it does is it feels really disarming to be able to just be met with I want to know you, I want to know where you're at, and can I do you need support? Do you not? And if so, this is what I offer, and is is this enough for you in this season of your life? And so when I think about, you know, non-tradition and traditional relationship, because what one of the things that I find very interesting is like if parenting in and of itself has known me and you're just doing it off, you're bound to make mistakes, right? But also like romantic relationship, you're doing it off the cuff and making so many mistakes. But we are very closeted around romantic relationship. And some people are very closeted about their parenting relationship, but not really because their child is their evidence, you know, they run around telling our business because if if they are neglected, they will show it. If they're if they're well-nurtured loved, you see it, right? But our romantic relationship, some people just they keep it hidden. And so I think that when we can be curious, they can ask for help in perspective. Like, hey, you know, Britney and I, or Tim and I, we got into an argument. And I think we want to sometimes be so supportive that we become judgmental. And when our friends or family members starts telling us about conflict, telling us about struggles that are in the relationship, that whole thing that you were talking about earlier about like one person's right and the other person's wrong, you know, that that actually shuts down the conversation. Now you're painting my partner in a negative light. One of the things that I practice is when I call my friends, and I have a best friend who also happens to be a psychologist. I'm like, are you even my friend? Because it seems like you're my partner's friend, because she's always telling me uh a different perspective. But I actually go in, I'm like, okay, here's the situation, here's where I know it's my stuff, but also I am ready to hear things that can expand my perspective because I know I'm not all right about that. If we can create that through curiosity and we limit the judgment, and if our friends or family is willing to share this type of relationship, we then can listen and figure out what they need and ask them if, hey, can I support you in that? Also be ready to cut out people that are very toxic. Because when we talk about non-traditional relationships, when we talk about the LGBTQ population, you don't need to go and harm yourself trying to keep someone in your life by refusing to see you, to understand you. And all that does is that it causes this placating to the other person if they are not willing. Now, I'm not in the business of saying cut everybody out just because they disagree. There is going to be hardship in the transition, but make that judgment call, get a therapist if you need more support. And unfortunately, within the polyamory community in a non-consensual world, it is so taboo. So it is also very close. I find this particular community to be incredibly courageous because they live authentically to themselves with their village. There's networks, support systems already in place, resources, books like Polysecure is a great one. More than two is another book that explores that so they can start there and find different communities. And so I'm glad that they have that. But if you don't happen to be a part of that community, just start with curiosity. Be as open as possible. When you show up without judgment, man, you learn so much.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Then this question I feel like needs to be asked is that when they are people out there kind of like exploring that and they have kids, how do they make that transition? How do they involve the children? If we're talking about two, three-year-olds that's easy. They have no preconceived notion about what a relation should be. But what if they're like nine and ten, right? They already have an idea about what it should be. There is the dad and the mom, and all of a sudden their family structure is changing from a very traditional modernist parent to maybe polyamory, or maybe there is a mix between polyamory and LGBTQ. I am almost certain that this is probably also where a lot of people in our generation will kind of just stop. Because I mean, honestly, if I were, I'm like, I wouldn't know how to explain this to my child. How would they navigate that water? Because it's very murky, not only within themselves. They themselves don't know what the heck is going on. They're trying to feel it out. And then yet they have to take these children. And, you know, if we're talking about living authentically, I don't want that to be the reason why they're like, no, we're not gonna do this. We're just gonna stay in this monogamous relationship, even though we're not happy. We don't want to mess it up for them. And that's the thing that I heard so much where parents will say, like, yes, we have decided to be the most unhappy person on earth, have a very unhappy marriage because we don't want to mess it up for you. No kids want that kind of a burden for all the listeners out there. If you are thinking about going into polyamor relationships and you have children, Dr. Gina, what are the best ways to move that way so that everybody is able to live authentically?

Kids Authenticity And Wrap

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Or exactly kids these days are probably the most open in my generation, generations before that, because of exposure. Your kids will take your lead. I'm going to be very careful in answering this question, not because I don't think it's a great question. I think it's individually marked for each relationship, right? So I don't, I want to be very respectful that if you don't, if this is not something that you want to do in a particular in this way, I don't want you to subscribe to it. So, so, but uh you I think that because there's a lot of communication involved, meaning that the two, we'll say the two primary partners are together, they are asking questions, they're thinking about opening up the relationship. Those two need to decide what how the kids follow. If you have had all these conversations and you have not thought about what kind of experiences do we want our children to be exposed in, and what do we mean within the polyamory world, there is definitely different styles within it. There is some where the polycules are your partner's partner. Do you have a relationship with your partner's partner? Or do you have as limited relationship or limited contact? All of that gets decided before you act. So I think that's one thing that I want to make very clear with any listeners who wants to go into exploring this. First, is your relationship, is it helpful? And aka, or saying that in another way, polyamory is not a fix to what's broken, it will exasperate what's already broken. Oh my goodness. Jealousy, galore, uh, insecurities, galore. Right. You have attachment wounds? Oh my goodness, it's gonna be raw and exposed, and you're not gonna like it. So polyamory is not a band-aid, it is something that feels like it is it is it resonates with you. It's an extension of the way that you want to show up in a relationship. You've already decided, and so that needs to be talked about. Everybody gets a say. What are your boundaries around around your partner's partner? What do they call your partner's partner? How do you introduce these things? Oh, there's so many nuanced pieces to this, but if both of you can't arrive at a safe place, healthy place when it comes to the children, no one should be acting. That it's time to recruit some help. It's time to bring a therapist in. And I think this is the most important. What you say you must follow through on. Not meaning like I want my partner's partner to meet my kids, and then um that you have to keep it that way for the rest of your life, even if you feel uncomfortable. A lot of the polyamory world and the experience is that you have to let things unfold, and then you use that information to inform you is this is this something that I'm willing to continue with or not. Consent today does not automatically mean that I will consent for the rest of my life. It is not a like lifetime contract. Yeah, exactly. So I so if what we're doing now, it doesn't fit. Our children is giving us feedback. And also listen to your kids if they are not ready, if they're saying, I I don't I don't want this, I want mom and dad. Well, I mean, everybody needs to be listening, and then we establish boundaries. So I think that decisions need to be made long before you even go down that. Do not let your kids be the teachers of it, all of it, because that's not fair to your children. But then when they receive that, because you've considered it, you've thought about it, everything is in place, and your child is saying, I'm not ready for this, or I don't feel comfortable, don't rush it. Let that moment uh pass. I think I want to borrow from blended families too. I think that there's a lot of work within blended families, the step parent role, like what can they say, what can they do? Dare I say we can borrow a lot of the parenting strategies within that. We're not really reinventing the wheel, but I truly believe that if you're not having the discussion and it's so clear and decided, do not bring your children into that mess. Your kids should not be the ones discovering everything and then telling you you need to be stepping in. I hope that starts the conversation for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yeah, I'm excited. Oh, this is so good because I think this is like one of those things, and as a parent, I can relate sometimes that fear is like, oh, I want to do something for myself, but I will stop if that means you know it's gonna affect my child child in a way that I don't, you know, I'm unsure of or has been stigmatized or whatever, and also I have seen this modeled, right? Just within my own family. Oh, you guys didn't want a divorce or didn't want this because people will look at us differently, and so they stayed together, which didn't do anybody any favor. Um at the end of the day, is that how can we be brave and be authentic and live our truest self? Because at the end of the day, I feel like that's what everybody needs to be to have a model of so they can be true

Kids Authenticity And Wrap

SPEAKER_00 50:20

to themselves, right? It's oh, they dare to go after what they wanted and they were happy. So I'm allowed to be happy, whatever that means.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

I think that kids are so resilient, and kids will give you so many chances to try again. They're compassionate beings without even trying. Because, like, say for say, for instance, you know, and every parent has had this moment where they they had they were at their wits' end, they're tired, they snap at their child, says something really harshly, and you come back and say, I'm so sorry. My goodness, they're like, you know, pudding. They they're like, Oh, it's okay, mommy, you know, and so I truly uh a healthy child is uh you know really thriving when they have a parent who is living authentically, living openly, and and it's genuinely happy because when a parent is happy, it it naturally flows down to their child. And so relationship structures, whether it be a traditional or non-traditional relationship, there is a lot, you know, there's going to be seasons where it's not the best, but staying staying together just for to keep the family together actually creates more distance. No one's actually solving anything, and every and the kid is stuck. And guess what? This is where a lot of the maladapting coping mechanism, like withdrawing, isolating, avoiding starts to happen because there's nowhere to go in a home that's rifled with conflict by two adults refusing to leave each other, unwilling to work through that.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

Like I'm like, yep, that sounds about right. You just diagnosed me. Yeah, pretty much. Oh my god, this is um so it's so crappy. Crappy, like breaking, right?

SPEAKER_02 52:25

Yeah, I I felt that way with my own, you know, parents. I'm like, y'all would be so I would be so much happier if y'all would just break up because man, it would have I I would have at least gotten the opportunity to see two people be happy.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

There you go.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Like that that's another thing, you know. You get you're giving your kids the opportunity to see this part of you, and you know, conflict, you know, romantic relationship can last for a very long time because you you genuinely want to see if it works, you know. But there's a moment when the relationship is past their expiration date, and some of your viewers know it. Like, well, I stayed way too long. Yeah, and if your child was a part of that, when they see the difficult part, which is the family looks different, how we operate in the family looks different by mom and dad and broken up. But when they see mom and dad happy, relax, that changes the way that your child nervous system is yeah, relationships, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:28

Well, we're social animal, so I guess yeah, just try and figure things out. So good. Oh my god, thank you so much. This is so fun.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I had a really good time talking to them. There's just so many things.

SPEAKER_00 53:42

I know this is so interesting. I can know he's like, oh, this is gonna be a good nugget for this family. Like I'm just thinking about like my universe. I'm like, oh my god, they need to hear this and they need to hear that. But I think at the end of the day, it's just about like, okay, what are we willing to look at and deal with and learn? And the children they were just, you know, so much of this too, like we affect them by osmosis. You know, they see you doing, and they, you know, and then they were like, okay, so this is what I do, and this is how I talk about it, and this is what we're gonna do, and this is what I'm gonna do for myself, and all of it. Authenticity is where it's at. Thousands. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is not gonna be the first, I'm sure. I'm just Well, it was a pleasure. Just let me know.