SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hello everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Stories. I'm Rita. If you've just listened to today's Once Upon a Feeling story, this episode is where we slow things down and unpack together with an expert. These conversations are here to support parents, caregivers, and educators, to explore the emotional themes beneath the story, what children might be picking up on developmentally and relationally, and how storytelling can become a tool for connection rather than correction. I'm so glad you're here, and let's get into it. Welcome to this week's Beyond the Story. I'm super excited because I get to sit here today to talk with two friends, really. This particular story that we just read, Sophie Slippers, it was just kind of came into my universe by coincidence. My friend here, Rebecca Callahan, was looking for a sitter because she was invited to go to the book launch for Sophie Slippers. And I said, bring your kiddos over. And next thing you know, I am mesmerized by the story because she dropped a signed copy off. And I really want to know who Sophie was. And apparently she told me Sophie is a real person, a real dance teacher, 20 minutes away from where we lived. So here we are. I'm so excited because this is one of those moments where you get a book without any agenda, and then it's like peeling onions, and there is layers upon layers upon layers that I feel like it is just so beautiful. And it makes me think that many of the stories that we hear, many of the books that we have, probably all kind of do something very similar. If we have the right lengths, if we have the right support to help those of us who are not being trained to become a marriage and family therapist, like Rebecca is, like we don't see those layers. So I'm so happy that you guys are joining me here today to chat about this.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Sophie, we're gonna start with you. You're involved in the development of this book. But it was not written by you. No, it was an author, but it's based on you.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

I'm very honored to have been used as the inspiration for this book. And Kelly, Kelly Gary was an employee of mine at the dance studio. She's now an elementary school teacher, but for several years she worked for me in the dance studio. And I think she got to experience my teaching style with the children I work with. So she was watching that from kind of the outside, and then also just being an employee of mine, hearing about my own childhood experiences as a dancer and kind of creating this imaginary dance studio that I ran for many years in my childhood, and hearing kind of those fun stories and the ways that I developed my imaginary dance studio and brought it to life in 20 years ago in the creation of my actual dance studio with real children and people. And I think she just was really inspired and loved the magic in those fun things, and that led her to want to write this children's book. I think Kelly and I both agree that children's stories and songs give children the ability to explain the unexplainable for them in many ways. And as an elementary teacher herself and a kindergarten teacher for a while, um, that the power that the stories had in helping to support, inspire, comfort children is very impactful. So Kelly came to me and said she had written this little story based on the experience she had working with me and the things I've shared with her. And was I interested in helping make it come to life in some way? So I was thrilled too and have been part of the development of this book at the point.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Do you remember what it was like for you personally? Like, you know, when you were growing up, is there a story or two? How did you discover that magic was in you and not something outside?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I was really blessed to grow up with two parents who were kindergarten teachers. And my both of my parents were extremely creative. And I think my father in particular, as a male kindergarten teacher, which was very rare, but I think what his specialty, his gift was really taking children in particular who maybe were really struggling. He would say, you know, the more difficult children in his classroom became his favorite children because I think what he enjoyed the most was pulling them out of their shell and showing them the light that really was inside of each of them, the gifts that they did have. My father loved that challenge. He would say all the time, you know, I think my parents were both kindergarten teachers in the same school. So prior to kindergarten starting, they would meet these incoming kindergartners and have some sense from their preschool of who was about to come into their classroom for, you know, a full year. And it was kind of a joke at the time that they would go through and the kids that they knew were going to be more challenging would ultimately be my father would really want them in his classroom. And his classroom, if you walked by the halls and looked inside the window of my mother's fairly organized and meticulous kindergarten classroom, civilized in some ways, and my father's classroom looked like maybe something out of kindergarten cop, but he just thrived in having children that maybe appeared chaotic, but in many ways were truly creative. And he really enjoyed the creative process of them being able to excel and find the best parts of themselves, especially in a world, and we see that now more and more, certainly from the time he was a kindergarten teacher, where there is so much criticism and judgment if you're kind of not falling into line. And so there's fewer and fewer people excited about celebrating what your own uniqueness or what your light may be, because it may not be so obvious in the current daily expectations and pressures that everybody has. So I was very fortunate to grow up watching my father in particular do this, but then also be part of this in our own home. I think he was just a kind of a master of unconditional love in that way for us and encouraging our own not only creativity, but also humor and imagination, really. So I think that's been a really fun part to bring into my own classes. My dance studio teaches ages 18 months and parenting me classes through 18 years old. And your training and development in the dance studio changes dramatically from the time that you're in kind of a toddler world of dance class and imagination into a more technical, high-level, even competitive dance world. But my sort of forte is teaching our underage five classes, my parent and me, my toddler classes, and really getting to take all of the children and instill the love of dance movement and themselves mostly, and then see what they do with it. Some of them go on to continue to dance. Some, you know, they they take it in different directions. But I think I've realized that of all of the good, bad, and everything in between that I may have inherited from my own family, I think that is like my most special gift. And I really enjoy bringing that world into the dance studio for them and in my own home because I'm a mom too.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Yeah, that's beautiful. Oh, lucky kids and lucky you. So, Rebecca, I think like let's talk about what we talked about before. And I think it's just so interesting because, you know, on the surface, it's about a pair of ballet slippers, and the slippers, you know, brought Sophie in the book into a different world, out of the cosmos, under the sea. It was adventures, and you know, as we all know, we grow shoes tear and get dirty, loves things that get lost. And you mentioned something about transitional objects that I really want to kind of talk about because I know for a fact that one of my relatives will buy multiple loves for the child, so she will never have to deal with the lovey being lost. And we all have seen those messages on our mom groups. It's like, where else can I find this thing? He lost and he's losing it. I can't do this. Can we talk about a little bit about what the slippers is to Sophie and how we see it in everyday world and beyond?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this is such a beautiful book and such a great example of a transitional object. And for those who aren't familiar with that term, psychologically speaking, it's kind of, you know, maybe the pacifier for the for that small baby, or it's a favorite teddy bear, or a favorite lovey, or in this case, a pair of ballet slippers where this child got a lot of her own self-worth and this magic from these outside objects that represent something that feels really safe, secure, like an attachment. And so a transitional object kind of comes out of the early 1950s attachment theory. And also Donald Winnicott was a psychoanalyst and a pediatrician who recognized that young children really were using objects as secure attachments when their caregivers were not present. And even when they were present, it was just something they could hold close to make them feel safe in the world when the world can be chaotic. We're not always with our caregivers. So it's just this thing, you know, we can sleep with it, we can be with it, and we could dance in them. You know, it there's not a one size fits all for what a transnational object could be. And so in this story, in this beautiful story, we see a little girl who gets very attached to her ballet slippers. And one day she grows out of them. And it's almost like that velveteen rabbit story of like, I loved it so much, it just became sort of this tattered thing. But it's a symbol. And I love what you said before, Sophie, where you said, you know, it's something to explain the unexplainable, because that's what stories are for children. It's they're symbolic. And we as parents sort of sometimes can forget that these stories are symbolic for these children. It's something that they really can internalize in a way that's not just words. And so when a child loses an attachment, whether it be slippers, a favorite stuffy, this is like part of life. We move through these transitions. We need to learn how to grieve these things. We need to learn how to remember these things. And then eventually, as we developmentally grow, we as parents hope that our children can internalize these things as magic within ourselves, not just deriving the magic from something outside of ourselves. And so as children grow and they learn, oh, the magic is actually within me, I don't need these slippers to validate my magicness.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

And it's just so interesting you mentioned that because it goes both ways. Like we were talking about this before, is that while we want to teach the children, like, no, the magic is within you, the slippers. But I also remember, like, I think we'll make the mistake. I know I probably make the mistakes of like maybe saying, telling my children, well, you need to don't wear this and do that, because all of a sudden, a certain thing that is outside the way that we're framing it is making it sound like it is representing them. It is becoming, you know, they are being judged or seen as who they're, you know, what they're wearing or how they have their hair and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Or, hey, don't you love these new slippers? They're shiny and new. Like, get over the old ones. They're old, they're torn, they're tattered. And we as adults will forget that these slippers actually symbolize something for these children. And we as adults are so, especially in our culture, we're so conditioned to look at the new, next, shiny best thing. And we forget that these are like attachment objects, these are security, this is meaning making for these kiddos. And that's really important to acknowledge and be with and sit with. And oh my goodness, like an ideal sort of way to be with a child in this moment might be: I know these slippers mean so much to you. And look at all of the amazing things you learned when you were wearing these. You know, ask the child, what do these mean to you? How can we honor these? How can we remember these beautiful slippers? And you're growing, and you're gonna move into new things as well. And maybe you'll make new memories in these slippers. It's that process of initiation, right? We don't have a lot of initiation processes in our culture, but these thresholds of moving from something that meant something so much to a child into something new is such an important process to remember to be with children in. And we as adults sometimes forget because we're just saying it's an object, it's it's just a thing. Get over it. And that's how we really invalidate our kids, and really that's not empathy, that's not being with. That's how we create sort of your feelings don't matter.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah. So I feel like this is such a fine balance in between giving the object enough meaning because what it symbolizes, and at the same time, like how do you transition the kids out of it? I don't know. There's like it's I feel like it's a it's a it's a it's a dance, pun intended.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Sure is, isn't it? I think it's the the acknowledgement of it that's sort of the bridge into giving it just enough acknowledgement that it was special and more than more than just a thing. And that being said, these things helping your child understand that these things are symbolic of something that is inside of us. So I think it's not skipping over the piece that it mattered and that you have maybe lost something that was special. I think it's like that acknowledgement piece that is that transitional piece into the next step. And I think for kids that are also so um like excited about growing and growing up, you know, they always, it's like, am I four and a half yet? Am I five? You know, how like, and for them to understand that, you know, I think even as adults, we have to remind ourselves of this that like if we're going to level up, leveling up into kind of the next stage, growing up, not everything we have is meant to come with us. So we kind of have to start at a very young age, understanding that all of these little things outside of us cannot always come with us into the next piece. So I think it's um I think it's that acknowledgement piece that is so important and and maybe takes as opposed to like the disregard of it's just a thing, with also, you know, let's find those slippers. They were so important. We've got to find, you know, we gotta repair them. Like, no, we have to uh give them gratitude for what they served and move on to the next to the next level, to the next birthday.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

That's kind of where the internalization of these symbols means that's sort of the teaching process, right? Like we want our kids to internalize these feelings instead of carry them around in bags with us. And that's I think the developmental process is sometimes these transitional objects are just that they're transitions.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, I feel like some a lot of these things, you know, sure, we're as parents, we want to help with our children, you know, help our children go through all of these hard things. But I feel like for me personally, the question is like, can I sit with it? Like, what is your advice to parents? Like, right? Like, you know, where do the parents themselves need to be? Like when the kids are having big feelings and they're freaking out and everything, you know, nobody gets regulated. Like, how I mean, I don't know, maybe like we all have our own ways of kind of like coming back to center, but do you too have some tricks up your sleeves as to what to say to yourself or to the child so you can co-regulate or just being able to sit in the grief on what that looks like?

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Yeah, it's tricky in our culture because a lot of us weren't really mirrored in this way that we're talking about. And you know, it sounds like I've known Sophie a long time, it turns out we actually went to college together, so I know her dad, I know her mom, and she probably was mirrored very well. But a lot of us were not, and parents often don't know how to sit with hard feelings, and so they want our kids to just move on quickly and get over it. And because we're uncomfortable in that, and we don't really know how to grieve, and we don't know how to hold the space for that uncomfortable feeling. And our kids are mirrors, right? Like our kids kind of shine a light on what it is that we as the adults maybe need to work on a little bit more for ourselves. So if we're finding it really uncomfortable or really hard to sit in hard feelings, how can we possibly expect our kids to do that?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

So I feel like that somebody needs to put this into like a parenting 101 class. It was like, how do you sit in that feeling? Right. Because, and that is so true. I remember um when my kiddos were young in preschool, I we worked with this amazing preschool teacher. And it's interesting because I grew up from a family, I grew up in Asia, and there was, you know, quite a bit of punishment, let's just say. Like, you know, there's there's there's a lot, some candy. There was also a lot of canes. And so as I became a parent, I'm just like, I'm not gonna do that, right? I'm gonna be nice to my kids. I am not gonna be upset. I'm gonna be able to like have my composure because they are kids. Like, we need to have capacity. I want to show them that, you know, you need to you have like, you know, I want to model what it looks like to have capacity. And I think it was probably the second or the third sessions in with this teacher, he immediately said, like, oh, you're upset? Then you've got to show them that you're upset. And that I'm like, wait, wait, what? What what do you mean? And so much of that, well, if you don't show them you're upset, then how are they gonna know if anybody is upset? And if you're not gonna show them you're sad, how are they know what sadness in other people look like? And yeah, that blew my mind. I'm still practicing that because it's very uncomfortable. But so much of what we do, and yeah, again, kind of going back to that dance is that how do we be authentic and show all of the range of all the range of humans and motions that we're capable of, but without going overboard or taking it out on them.

SPEAKER_01 21:31

A few years ago, when our cat was let out and never came back, Iris, and we were all really devastated. We only had Iris for a couple of years, and she was a fantastic cat. She was amazing. And we had moved into a new house, and during some construction, Iris had been let out. And for a long time we looked for her for weeks, and we were all really sad about it. The kids included, and I think we had this thought that someone would find her, and you know, we'd Her back. And it kind of got to a point where it was pretty clear that Iris wasn't going to come back. We live up in the hills and there's coyotes and all kinds of things could have happened potentially, but we didn't know for sure. But I think for the kids it was really important that we had some kind of acknowledgement ceremony and thanking her in gratitude for the time that she did spend with us. And so we kind of had this evening. We sat out on the balcony together and lit candles and shared some things that we loved about Iris and wishes that we had. The girls were really little at the time, maybe I don't know, five, seven, maybe Blaze was even three. They were little. And just in together, kind of talking as a family together about our memories. And I think Coraline, who was, yeah, probably five at the time, was funny. She made a comment that, you know, Iris was always trying to get out. Well, she was. I mean, friends would come over and open the door, and Iris, as fast as she could, would run out the front door. So, you know, Iris was always really trying to get out. And, you know, now that I think about it, I think, I think she's probably exactly where she wanted to be. I think she is, she's probably out because that that is really what she wanted. So, you know what? I'm happy for her. And, you know, we had a little bit of a giggle, but it really went on to just even just having that moment of thinking about it of you're right, maybe she, maybe this is what she wanted. And now we're happy for her. And then into sort of the the imagination part of it where the girls started to chat about where do what do we think Iris is doing now? And I think, you know, we all know the reality of maybe where what Iris was doing in that moment. But like I think the world is harsh enough and will make sure that my kids understand death. And like, I don't feel like every lesson I have to make sure that they know the harsh reality of everything. I don't think that's my job. The the world will definitely make sure they get that information. But they started to create their imaginations of maybe where Iris was. Like she might have joined a cat gang. And I was like, I bet she's totally running the Burbank cat gang. Or, you know, maybe she's met Santa Claus and she has to help him and deliver presents. And there's all these wonderful things that maybe Iris is doing. And it didn't negate the fact that we were all sad and missed her and had the moment of grieving and crying, but also moving through those emotions to get beyond it. We can't just, you know, we're not going to sit in the sadness of it, but transition it a little bit. And I think the most important part of all of that wasn't really the conversation. It was the time and moment together, the acknowledgement of it. So I think that's where parents, as we're rushing through, you know, just on roller skates all day long. And we want our kids to get over things so fast. But I think it's so important. And Rebecca can speak to how important that is or if that's important. But to me, that's where I see the biggest like support in the kids' emotions.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

I totally agree. That was so well articulated, and I loved your example with Iris. So because what you're describing is sort of a ritual. We don't really have a lot of rituals in our culture. We don't take a lot of moments to really sit and acknowledge something that means something to us. And our culture is so fast to just sort of bulldoze over things. And I mean, I see couples in my practice, and I can't tell you how often it's like, you don't acknowledge me, you don't understand me, you don't see me. And it's these same themes of like, be with me in this moment, whatever that looks like. Maybe it is hilariously laughing at something so sad, and that is a version of grief. I mean, it doesn't always have to be wearing all black and crying our eyes out. It is this moment of acknowledgement of acknowledging all the emotions that are present, not just the sad ones, not just the hard ones. Sometimes it is the laughter, sometimes it is the wow, these slippers are so small on you. This is hilarious. You know, maybe it is look how many holes you put in these things. This is hilarious. Like whatever is present is I think kind of the acknowledgement.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Yeah. It sounds like we just gotta run towards it. It reminds me of another book. And this is the funny part. Like, as yeah, I start looking at children's book with like a more of an analytical, I'm not clinical, but somewhat like know what I know. But only if you guys remember this other book called, we're going on a bear hunt or whatever hunt it is. And it's all talks about you can't go over it, you can't go under it, you gotta go through it. And that is that's at the end of the day, that's really what life like to this day, you know, in my mid-40s is is is however hard or crazy or hilarious life, you know, is you you just gotta you you're gonna go right through it. And how do we build that?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

The only way out is through, Rita.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah, right? And how do we build that capacity? I think that's the interesting part, is how do we help the children build the capacity to be able to hold that emotion, to be able to go through it and then come on on the other side.

SPEAKER_02 27:14

That is exactly right. I would say clinic, the idea is always wholeness, capacity, stretching our edges in all the directions, not just one.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

So if there is one takeaway for both of you that you want the audience to know from a teacher standpoint, from a family therapist standpoint, what would it be if they forgot about our entire conversation? And then just like one thing you want them to remember.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

So I have a couple of thoughts. One, it's to remember the importance of stories for children and what they actually do, and the importance of understanding, too, that children relate so much to the source of their what they're the information they're being given, who is giving the information. And I think especially like now my oldest daughter is 15, she's a teenager, and I could say the exact same things that somebody who is not her mother could say, and they will hit entirely differently. They so who is is sharing the information is really important. And the fun thing about stories is kids get to hear this information not from a parent or you know, a teacher, even somebody who may just have like a critical eye looking at them, but from this other, from this sort of greater power, esoteric, ethereal situation. And so the information they're getting from the stories, the lesson they're getting from the stories can hit really differently. So I think there's a lot of value in sharing stories with children, encouraging reading at all at all ages. I think that is something I would really want to encourage parents to look into and really see the importance of storytelling at all ages. And I think the other thing is is really just helping our children to understand all of the magic and power that they have within themselves, because at the end of the day, we don't we don't remember the things. Remember the feelings. We always remember how we made someone feel, how someone made us feel. And especially at a time where what you're wearing, what they had, what you didn't feels like it's the be-all, end-all. Really remembering that no one, no one is going to remember what you wore, but they are going to remember what you said or how you made them feel. And and and that is so important. And that gives children a tremendous amount of of power. So I think, yeah, those would in my perfect world, everybody would really understand or be able to validate how how valuable that is.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

I love it. I couldn't agree more so well, said Sophie. I mean, the key things that stand out are reading children's books are an opportunity for connection, understanding, and real empathy. Like teaching empathy is so huge. And I think that's what Sophie's talking about is this idea of deep connection, understanding, and empathy. And people I think misunderstand empathy a lot. People think empathy is helping or fixing or doing or something like that. And empathy really is like imagine you're in the passenger seat of someone's car and they're giving you a tour of their life, and you're just there to witness it all, take it all in, understand what they're showing you as best you can, and being with them. And that is empathy. So when you're reading with your children, you're with them, you're exploring this imagination and this world with them. And what are these feelings that come up for you? And how do you see this? And how do you take this in? And how are you feeling about this? And this is what I feel when I see this, and let's share this moment together and be present.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah, that's so so well said. I love it. And it's kind of it's just so interesting. And in my world, uh, you know, we're straddling between children's development and tech and podcasting and all the things, and we have this big pink elephant AI in the room that actually a lot of people are talking about it, but nobody knows what to do with it. And it's questions of consciousness and all the different things. What are our kids going to do? I think that is like the what are they going to do? What kind of job are they going to do? In terms of professional development as we know it, it's it's pretty much it gone out of the window. If and if it will be if it hasn't already. But at the end of the day, like for this human experience to build capacity and to thrive is really learn how to feel. That is the first and foremost. And I feel like once they have that down, everything else is pony tricks.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yeah. They will have to be innovators and creators, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

And I'll say that, like, without someone like Sophie running a dance school like she runs for kids, without her being her and the capacity that Sophie has and the empathy that she has, she wouldn't be as successful as she is. She wouldn't have a book written about her experience. Yes. Achievement and milestones, sure. But the other thing that we're talking about here is really the thing that makes people stand out. In my view, is the thing that will get that adult the job or not, will make that person successful or not, will make someone want to hire them or not. These are the sort of real human qualities that make someone a success, regardless of what job they end up having or education or any of the other stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

And that's kind of goes back to what Sophie was saying before that really landed for me is that people are not going to remember what you're wearing. People are not going to remember where you went to school. People are not going to remember whether you have a P two PhD, three three PhDs, but they will remember how you made them feel.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Well, thank you so very much, my beautiful guests. Can't wait to hang out more post-podcast. And again, so much. This is so beautiful. I love it. And um, thank you, Rebecca. So many insights since we have met. Like, I I kind of just like I want to like just have you like, I mean, I don't know. I feel like I need to move. We're pretty close, but like, you know, like a like a weekly scheduled call or something, so I can still call it all up. Yeah, and thank you to all the audience out there and listening to our conversation. I hope you got something. If you like it, recommend it to your friends, give us a far server review. And that will be all for this week. And I guess I will see everybody next time. Thank you. Thank you, Rita. Thank you, Rita.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

Thank you, Rebecca. Thank you, Sophie. Love you all. This was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Thank you so much for spending this time with us on Beyond the Stories. If this conversation was helpful, we'd love for you to share with a friend, a fellow parent, or anyone who might benefit from it. And if you feel moved to, please leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcast. It truly helps more people find these conversations. You can also find more stories and resources by downloading the Gucci app in Apple App Store. All the links and resources, as well as ways to connect with us, are in the podcast description. And if you have any questions, episode requests, or topics you'll love us to explore, would truly love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for listening, and we will see you next time.