SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Stories. I'm Rita. If you've just listened to today's Once Upon a Feeling story, this episode is where we slow things down and unpack together with an expert. These conversations are here to support parents, caregivers, and educators, to explore the emotional themes beneath the story, what children might be picking up on developmentally and relationally, and how storytelling can become a tool for connection rather than correction. I'm so glad you're here, and let's get into it. Hi everyone, thank you so much for joining us today for our very first Beyond the Story episode, where I Rita, your host, will be diving in a little deeper on the topics that we touched on in the previous episode where the kid read the story and told us a little bit about their experience. Now, in case you have not heard the previous episode, I highly suggest you pause this one, go back, listen to the stories, and then come back because you will gain so much more from what we're gonna be talking about today. In case it was not obvious, which I don't think it was obvious, the last story, Playground Problems, was actually read by my own daughter, Madelina, when she was in fourth grade, as she has said, she went through a little bit of a tricky situation at school with two of our other friends. And it was through that experience we found Paige, Paige Howard, who is here with us today. Hi, Paige. Hi, Rita, how are you? Thank you so much for uh, you know, taking an hour out of your busy day. You're a new mom and you have your practice and your work at school. So really, really appreciate you being here today and sharing all of your knowledge with us and with our audience. I think to start, I would love to hear your story. What drew you to become a family therapist? Um, was there a particular moment, experience that made you think like, oh, this is what I want to do?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, it's a great question. I always think about therapists in general, and everyone usually has an origin story of going through their own therapy at some point in time, and I am not a stranger to that either. So I myself had been through therapy at a certain season of life and realized how amazing it was and how helpful it was and life-changing. So I felt that kind of sense of I love this for myself. I have some skills already. How do I kind of merge these two worlds? I've always been interested in stories and working with people and particularly kids. I babysat a lot growing up. I was really involved in youth group and things like that. So I had kind of been spending a lot of time around kids and families growing up in a small community as well. And so when I kind of went through some career changes, I was really kind of reassessing what are my own gifts and talents and how can I use those in a different way to kind of meet what my own experiences have already been. So I decided to start grad school and did a program that was the American Family Therapy program. And originally, even though I had that background, I was considering doing more adult couples work. And I did some of my training in that specifically. Alongside that, I also got my practicum experience in a school and working with kids. And that was really what sparked it. I said, okay, this is really more of what my skill sets are. This is what my interest is. I had a really great experience in the schools that I was working in. I had a really wonderful supervisor and a team that was really aligned in how we work with kids. And I did a specific play therapy training for that year of my practicum as well. So then I got a lot of hands-on experience to become more of a play therapist. And now I'm a registered play therapist as well as a licensed marriage and family. So yeah, being in the school and working with kids and teens really sparked it up for me. I said, yes, this feels right. This feels like I'm I'm kind of more geared towards it. And that's the world in which I swim now. I work with, you know, kids ages three to really 18, but my sweet spot is really those elementary years, you know, third, fourth, fifth grade, a lot of things going on socially, academically, socially, emotionally. So that's kind of a little bit of my broad strokes origin story, but I love what I do. I've been uh in this field for about eight or nine years at this point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Before we talk about our children in this generation, I'm curious, like, how did your own childhood experience shape the way like you see kids and conflict and just kind of like all things childhood today?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

So good. Um yeah, I I mean, I grew up in a really rural area in Arkansas, a really small town. And so I was a kid who knew the same kids from preschool all the way through high school, which doesn't always happen, especially in big cities. So I feel like that it basically gives me some insight into what those dynamics can look like over time, um, which I do see with my own, you know, clients that I work with now. It's like some kids will stay in the same school system and then we'll have to deal and navigate with these challenges that these kids aren't changing. They're not gonna be leaving, they're gonna be staying together. And so that can bring up a lot of how do I navigate maybe wanting to be this person's friend for this season, but maybe we have a falling out, but we're still gonna be in the same class or the same setting. And so I myself had to go through that as well. But I I also I think there is a lot of benefit to it because I I learned what it was like to work through some of those challenges and work through some of those like really difficult, awkward, you know, social dynamics and friendship issues. And, you know, I'm still friends with some people that I grew up with as well. So it's kind of nice to know that you can kind of get through those little hard seasons of life and come up, you know, on the other side of it as well. So I mean, growing up in a small town was really great in a lot of ways. Um how do you see the kids today?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Like, does that kind of like shape, you know, and you know, those point of view in a different you know differently than let's say another person who may have grown up in a big city, like moved around a lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Absolutely. Good question. And I think uh that's why I love the work of a therapist because you get to take your own experiences but not project them. You get to have them inform you as a person and then meet your therapy your client wherever they may be, right? And so as a play therapist, and like I'm very attachment-based and person-centered as well. I like to get to know the kids that I work with and I will share appropriately like things about my own experiences. And even though we can have vastly different childhood experiences, there are some things that are just like across the board, like, oh, I remember feeling really icky and uncomfortable and like awkward when I was in, you know, sixth grade, or I remember, you know, having to navigate being really good at something and someone else maybe not being as good. And how do I navigate how I feel and talk about those things, or maybe feeling jealous about a friend going through something. Um, so the broad strokes are actually really connecting, even though our personal experiences may be kind of different. I also, you know, like to bring a lot of humor into my work with my kids. So like I like to share about, you know, that I grew up on a farm and I had chickens and raccoons and like skunks for a season, and like kind of just find a commonality of, you know, differences but similarities as well.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

So yeah, I think that is so important. And you just reminded me of something that happened actually yesterday amongst in my grown-up social group that I created years ago based on like the neighborhood geographical area, and then there was some very heated discussion, and you know, that group has grown to like over a hundred members, so from like eight of us, you're gonna have friction, you're going to have different points of view. Yeah. And I think what you have mentioned, and what really struck out, like you know, for me, is that being in that small town when you're stuck with the same people for over a decade and you're growing up together and you're all trying to figure things out yourself, friction is inevitable. And I feel like that is actually the bigger conversation. Like this is a whole nother episode. Yeah, of course. How do we handle, you know, coping with friction and working through it rather than what a lot of us will do nowadays is to like, you know what? I'm avoided, right? I am checking out that like we are unable to hold that space. That's why, yes, you know, there we have different points of view. And we can also move forward and see each other and agree to disagree or whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

I was just gonna respond and say, you know, just to validate that too, because that is so true that as adults, we still deal with these same things. And then thinking about children and kids, they're dealing with these things with way less brain abilities, way less skills, you know, their brains are still developing. So thinking of, oh, I have to agree to disagree with someone else, or I have to navigate a tricky situation with an adult, and that feels weird and uncomfortable in my body if we're not really used to dealing with confrontation or conflict. Thinking about that for an eight-year-old or a nine-year-old, it's the same but different, right? They're having to um really, and that can be cause a lot of anxiety and a lot of you know distress, even in their brains and their bodies. And so I always try to think about, you know, some of the things that I try to bring to my clients in helping them navigate these challenges is really trying to think about the idea of what is it like for me and how can I stand up for myself, use my own voice while also holding that someone else might feel that way, similarly or differently. And like it's kind of that whole idea of can I tolerate that discomfort? Because the more experiences that I work towards tolerating that discomfort, the more I'll feel competent that I can do those things, right? And so it's hard as a kid because a lot of the kids that I work with don't actually want to, you know, they're the more of the voiders. There's they're like, I don't want to deal with the hard things. I'm gonna just not say what I'm really thinking to my friend, or I'm gonna, you know, pretend to be her friend or their friend, but really I feel like I don't want to be. So there's a dissonance between the internal experience and the external experience. So my whole goal is to help how do we the let the internal become a little bit more external while still staying true to yourself and thinking about the other person's feelings? So it's a lot of work for like a small little person's brain, but it's practice over time and building some competency in it.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

So yeah, I I think a lot of adults need that work even to this day. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

And it's kind of interesting because, you know, when we um decided to create the story um around play around problems, um I wanted to make sure like we have all the different perspectives. I think how we talk about these issues, we are constantly, you know, it's it's it's like very black and white. There's this dichotomy of like there is the one who is doing the bullying, and then there is the getting bullied. Yes. And that's the end of it, right? Yeah, and so you immediately put this other also eight-year-old with immature brain and maybe have a gazillion other things going on, immediately put them, you know, kind of like paint them as the villain in the story when there is so many other layers underneath that really needs to be held and space and grace needs to be given. Can you speak a little bit about that? Because I think for as a parent, there is the one thing that probably triggers will trigger me more than people telling me that my kid is being bullied, will be like my kid is the bully, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

I mean, I will be like talking about like getting really like lost and not knowing what to do. Like, what is your advice? Like, how do they start kind of like dealing with that kind of a situation in their home?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Yes, yes, oh, so so good and so true. And you know, I think that what you said is so accurate to what I see a lot in the kids that I work with because I I work with both sides. I work with kids who might be bullied, and then I also work with kids who might be the bully or the aggressor, right? And so, you know, I always try to come from a place of the, you know, there's always a reason, you know, on both sides, right? A lot of the things that I work with parents is kind of digging up their own maybe shame or embarrassment or other feelings that might be triggered for them as to why that feels so activating, if especially if their kid is the one who's the aggressor, right? Maybe it's social pressure of, oh no, I don't I want my kid to be quote unquote good. I want them to have the right behavior. Well, why is that? Was that because you yourself had experiences where maybe you were labeled a certain way and that didn't feel good to you? And so you don't want that for your kid? I mean, there's always a reason. There's always more to the story there. One thing I do try to help families in doing is coming back to if your kid is whichever side of the spectrum they may be on, getting very curious about the why, right? Talking with your kiddo and being like, this is happening at school. I wonder if something else is happening too, right? Having a bit more of an open posture, because I think our inclination can be like, you know, punitive of you can't be this way, you can't be acting this way, this isn't the nice thing to do for our friends and for people in our lives. But that doesn't always land with kids, right? They're having a need that's getting met in some way by acting out in a certain way. Behavior is communication. So what we have to do is we have to be a little bit curious about what they're trying to communicate, you know. Um I am a big fan of um, you know, Dan Siegel's work and Tina Payne Bryson's work, The Wolverine Child. I use it a lot in my practice. I think that's very valuable advice for families. And that all it means is when we're going through something and when we're working with our kids, we need to be able to help them name what they're feeling and what they're experiencing it in order to do something about it, right? So instead of having a kid who's just, you know, maybe name-calling their friend or excluding their friend or making their friend feel a certain way, well, maybe they're feeling excluded themselves. Maybe they're feeling like they don't feel very good about their selves, themselves, or, you know, their self-esteem is low. Well, once we know what we can once we've named that, we can actually do something about it and have more conversations and help that kiddo build some skills so that they feel better in their own body so they can be better engaged with other people, right? And so it always comes back to the name it to tame it for me, um, and getting curious about what's what's the need that's being met here through this behavior, and can we find other ways that those needs can be met in a more pro-social environment and pro-social way?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I think I get as you're saying all those things, and that I'm thinking is that how do you really understand what those needs are or to name it when you know, I think you you'll probably experience the same thing as a parent, is that you know, when we ask our kids, it's like, how was your day? Great, yes, and that kind of like that's where it ends, right? It's like what happened today? Nothing. Yeah, like what are some of the practical strategies and tactics and just things that us parents can do to to kind of like peel the onion a little bit to get a little more insight out of our children? Like, what are your tricks?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, you get them to talk. All right, let's do this, let's get them to talk. Well, you know what's so funny about that is that because my play work and play background, I I am actually less inclined to get a kid to talk to me directly. I am more inclined to let them decide how they want to communicate and meet them in that communication, right? So sometimes that may be verbally, like if they feel comfortable enough to be like, yeah, I had this thing at school today. You know, I I do a lot of rosebuds thorns checking in with my client. So tell me one good thing that's happened that's been rosy, that's felt really good. Tell me something that's been thorny that didn't feel so good, and something that is a bud that you might be looking forward to. So that can be a nice soundboard to start with, but depending on the age-staged kid, that may even be beyond their scope of you know, ability to do at the end of a day, especially the end of a day when they're so exhausted and they've been working, you know, school is work for them, so they've been working to learn, but also navigate some of the social pressures and dynamics. They just may need a minute, they may need a minute to rest and recuperate. So, you know, using a strategy like that is fine, but finding the right time to to talk to them. And if you, if that's not, you know, hitting it for you as a parent, set aside some time that you can actually just be with them, you know. Like maybe you guys are, you know, a family that likes to do art. Your kid is really interested in doing art, setting aside some time where you can actually engage in like an art activity. Maybe we draw out what's going what's going on at you know, school today, or let's paint something that makes us feel really good, or paint something that might be a little difficult. Kids tend to access that part of their brain more easily than the you know, talking verbally, using those sort of communication patterns that we're used to using as adults. So if you can kind of get them underneath themselves a little bit, they can still express it as just a little bit um less overt and less in that, you know, talking through sort of way. Um, I also have in my office and use this a lot with kids, different sorts of sensory objects that can help kind of let their bodies and brains calm down a bit so that they can access some of those things. So weighted stuffies and squishy fidgets and things that they're going to gravitate towards it helps open them up a little bit more and know that, oh, this is cool, this is safe. And as a parent, you yourself can if you if you like that. I have a lot of families who are not big slime people, and I totally get it. You know, where the slime comes in. Correct, exactly. Um, and you know, slime is just one tool that you can use, it doesn't have to be all of it, but using that sensory experience together can make the your kiddo feel very connected with you, very safe with you, um, and opens up a little bit more of that pathway for them to communicate with you. And like I said, it doesn't have to be as direct as tell me about your day. Well, that's a lot to have to break down. So tell me, you know, I've noticed this happened to me at this point in the day. I wonder what it was like for you, right? And using your own kind of experience to the day to model what it's like to share. There's some ideas and strategies, and I think it's also age-dependent. You know, a younger kiddo is probably not going to be able to speak more about it, but you know, older kiddos can access that. So there's there's a couple of ideas. I have more, but I don't know how much you want me to share about all of the different ways.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Well, yeah, I remember this line, and it's you know, I have an 11-year-old pretty much preteen, and to this day, you know, this is so kind of like the thing that she goes to. So now let's say the parents have figured out, or you know, the underlying uh feelings and here comes kind of like the tricky part for me as a parent is that when do I intervene? Yes, and when do I take a step back and allow the children to work out? What is that line? How do you tow that line?

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, such a tricky line, right? But the fact that you ask about the line is a really good thing because I do feel like what I've noticed a lot recently is the tendency for parents to almost believe that there is no line, that their entire job is to protect their child from emotional harm or discomfort or challenge, right? And you know, the minute that something comes up at school, they're going to intervene immediately, like, okay, I need to call the teacher, I need to call the principal, I need to get with this family. And it all comes from a really loving place. Like we as parents love our kids and we want to protect them and we want to make sure that they can be resilient and that they can handle these things, right? And you know, I go back to my play therapy training where one of the lines that Carrie Landrith says is never do for a child what they can do for themselves, right? And so that's a lot in the play therapy room, but I love to take that into the work I do with families too, because this is normal, right? What they're going through, these difficult challenges, I went through them myself. I'm sure you did in your own ways as well. It's normal to have to deal with conflict, with with difficulty, with someone not being kind to us. How do we navigate that? And how do we help our kid feel empowered to take care of that for themselves, right? I always go back to safety. If there's things going on that they're, you know, their body is being hurt in some ways, or it feels, you know, somewhat emotionally too intense for them, then we want to step in and we want to like make sure that you know these kiddos are being supported by the people in their lives outside of their family. But the majority Of challenges that they're going to go through on the playground. I think our job as parents is to hold the space for them to talk about it at home, especially, to validate their feelings around it, to problem solve at home, maybe role play a little bit of, hey, let's pretend we're dealing with this again. I'll be this person, you be that person. Let's play it out, right? Another strategy to use some playwork around it. And then help them practice those things at school, right? So that way they're getting their own sense of empowerment of, oh, I did that. Like this was a hard thing to do. And I did it myself, right? And so it's almost like you're a coach or a cheerleader for your kid instead of a, you know, a blanket fixer. We're we're helping our kid feel like, oh, this is hard, but they can get through this and they're going to feel better knowing that they built those tools themselves. So I it's kind of a large answer to your question, but I think we have to just really focus in on our kid. And if we feel like they're getting past the line that's uncomfortable for them, you know, like it's a little bit exposure work in its own way too. Like we're helping them feel some discomfort in a safe way to keep moving forward and dealing with some of these tricky challenges. So when your inclination is to fix, maybe take a pause and think, can my can my kid handle this right now? Or do I need to step in? Or is this an opportunity for growth? Right. You yourself as the parent, ask yourself those questions and before you move forward.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Oh my God, this is so good. We're all growing. And it is so interesting because I mean, I did not grow up with any of the my parents did not have any of this information. No, right? Yes.

unknown 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

There's a first time for everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

How cool though to give that to your kids.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Yeah. And then like even just like, you know, because the Madelina, when she was going through her friendship um issues, this was in fourth grade, and now she is in sixth. Oh, she's back with the same group of friends. And when I found out how her class placement was going to be, like I think I had a bigger reaction than she did. I think I skipped a breath. I was like, oh God. But she's navigating this year beautifully and floating back and forth and in and out, and still being really good friends with them. And it's just night and day. I'm grateful. I guess, you know, this comes down to like if you could offer parents one mindset shift, like from our generation, when it comes to friendship struggles of their children, and something that will help them breathe just a little easier. What would it be?

SPEAKER_00 24:34

Oh, that's so good. Maybe two. Maybe one is so. I was gonna say one is really challenging. I always like to to come back to, you know, what are our our goals for our our kids as a whole? Like, what do we want for as parents? And uh every family might have a different way to define that, but I think at the at the core is we want them to be able to have resilience and we want them to be able to deal with challenging things in life and be able to get through it, not just fix it or you know, be uh have it pushed behind them, but really be able to work through it to know if I go through something like that again, I know that I can. So to build these positive experiences of resiliency. And that for me has been helpful for even myself as a parent with new, you know, two young children, knowing that like my initial thought if my three-year-old was going to do something like, oh, he he's having a little tricky time of I, you know, going back to that whole trying to do for the kid what they can do for themselves. Like, oh, I want to make that easier for him. But at the end of the day, I want him to build resilience. So if I know he's a little bit nervous about trying something, I'm going to help scaffold him and help support him to get through that thing to then come back to and be like, you did that thing that was really hard, and you didn't think you could do it at first. And look at look where you are. I think you can do it again next time. So just kind of centering yourself as a parent and not being fearful of the challenge that your kid might might go through, right? Instead of it being, oh, this is gonna be scary for them, is this is gonna be a great thing for them to learn so that they can be strong and they have me as a parent to fall back on if it's really tough and really tricky. Um so the mind shift shift is more for us as parents to let things play out, let things be, and then to be able to um reflect on it with your kiddo and help them figure it out with you holding their hand in the background. So I think that's a really important piece.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Oh, this is so good. Thank you so much, Paige. Now, yeah, all that good nuggets of information. Uh, and I'm sure there's gonna be parents out there who are saying to themselves, Led, I need to find Paige. How do they find you? How do they, you know, come work with you if they're going through certain challenges? Can you share us like what you're practicing, your website, email addresses, all the good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Absolutely. Yeah. So I am located in Pasadena, California. So I see kiddos primarily in person, but I do offer telehealth virtual sessions. So and I love working with parents, so I do parent coaching too. So if that's something that parents are interested in, like absolutely happy to support you in that way. My email is page at pagehowardtherapy.com. Um, you can also look me up on Psychology Today and find my profile there. And I'm pretty much around. So I can make sure I give you my conference email and phone number so that you can link it um with the podcast as well. But yeah, you can find me there.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Thank you so much for today, and thank you. And I am sure I will be reaching out very soon for other advice for everything.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

It's such a fun conversation. Thank you. Of course, it's an honor to be here. Thank you for this. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

And folks, that is our first episode of Beyond the Stories. Stay tuned next week for more. Have a wonderful day, and thank you for being here with us today. Bye. Thank you so much for spending this time with us on Beyond the Stories. If this conversation was helpful, we'd love for you to share with a friend, a fellow parent, or anyone who might benefit from it. And if you feel moved to, please leave us a five-star review wherever you get your podcast. It truly helps more people find these conversations. You can also find more stories and resources by downloading the Gucci app in Apple App Store. All the links and resources, as well as ways to connect with us, are in the podcast description. And if you have any questions, episode requests, or topics you'll love us to explore, would truly love to hear from you. Thank you so much again for listening, and we will see you next time.